But this shouldn't mean Palestinian lives can
be de-valued by USA & Israel. People retain
their human rights, even if others in their
tribe are evil.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Whatever else might be argued, this much is true: ...
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
be de-valued by USA & Israel. People retain
their human rights, even if others in their
tribe are evil.
Hamas is most definitely an existential threat to Israel. And not only to the Jews living in Israel, but Hamas has resolved to go after the Christians next. Hamas is no friend of their fellow Palestinians, either, using them as human shields. Additionally, are you not aware of their charter, that calls for the unequivocal destruction of Israel? (Maybe you are aware of it, because your posts imply that you think this would be a good thing.) Are you not aware that their charter also condemned the Oslo Accords and declared that international peace proposals and conferences are "but a waste of time, and vain endeavors"? This is because Hamas does not want peace. And Hamas will continue to grow stronger and bolder if they are not stopped now.
Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari (whom I presume you are quoting out of context) has stated: "The top priority in the attacks is to eliminate senior [Hamas] officials." Hamas is hiding within its underground tunnels. There can be no "accuracy" in pinpointing where they may be in the tunnels. Israel is not seeking the destruction of the Palestinians who have left Gaza City and gotten as far south as possible. Egypt could help by opening their border to admit refugees, but apparently no Middle Eastern country wants the Palestinians. It's hard to blame Egypt when there is the real concern that Hamas operatives may be among those who have gathered at the border, intending yet again to shield themselves among innocent Palestinians and hoping to gain entrance to Egypt.
I don't know whether or not you are an antisemite. I know only that you have a deep antipathy for both Jews and Christians according to your own words posted on this forum. If anything (and I have already stated this), I believe that you have an illness within you, and I have said that I hope you find peace. I sincerely meant that. I have no further interest in discussion with you, as I am sick to death of your hostility.
Last edited:
Alien826
No religious beliefs
I don't think that's an accurate comparison, as Hispanic Americans probably identify with Mexico (or some other such country) rather than Spain, from which they might be many generations removed. My assumptions here are that Arabs living in Israel are likely to be sympathetic to Arabs in Gaza as they might have relatives there or whatever. And Jewish people would tend to support Israel for obvious reasons. So, if we could be flies on the wall listening to a conversation between a Jew and Arab, both living in Israel, we might expect opposing views about the current conflict.
You really believe that Hamas could defeat Israel, eh.
Astounding paranoia.
Aware of it?
Israel's apologists can't stop saying that in nearly every post.
But saying so doesn't make it reality.
Nonetheless, their charter doesn't justify waging war on civilians.
Your claim is specious.
Is it even possible for Israel's apologists to be honest,
& to consider any perspective other than justifying
deadly vengeance by citing Hamas's charter?
That's charitable.
But so am I.
I don't know whether or not you're a child molester.
But this regular resorting to invention & ad hominem
bespeaks desperate attempt to justify oppression &
war crimes by Israel. If you can only defend it by
attacking critics with insults, you should re-consider
whether it's worth defending at all.
Goodness gracious.
That's quite the histrionic, dishonest, & bigoted tirade.
The popularity of such views in Israel by its apologists
illuminates great vengefulness & inhumanity.
If "unqualified condemnation" denotes the position that massacring civilians is a war crime and should be condemned regardless of the actions of the state whose civilians were attacked, yes, I believe that Hamas' October 7 attack deserves such and must be viewed as a heinous act and a hindrance to peace efforts. The idea that Israel's actions make the massacring of its civilians any less reprehensible, which some groups have suggested, strikes me as alarming and profoundly dangerous.
On the other hand, I think it is crucial to consider the larger context of the 75-year-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israel's decades-long illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, its turning Gaza into an open-air prison, and its bombardment campaign that has killed multiple times more noncombatants than Hamas' attack did. I condemn both the attack and Israel's actions that have, for many years, resulted in disproportionate suffering and death for Palestinian civilians.
One of the most guaranteed ways to enable radicalism to spread, fester, and grow emboldened in a region is to sustain a status quo of oppression and abuse. This has historically been true for many different countries and conflicts, not just this one. The US tried to use brute force in its "War on Terror" without addressing its foreign policies that contributed to the rise of groups like al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and ISIS, and look how that has worked out after trillions of dollars have been spent and over half a million people have been killed. Radicalism can only be uprooted if the conditions that have given rise to it are addressed; brute force has failed many times before, and I don't think this time will be any different.
Does consideration of the above context make the condemnation "qualified"? I suppose that depends on how one looks at the situation. Whether one considers it "unqualified" or not, though, I think it's essential to both condemn attacks on civilians and not overlook the conditions that led to this point and the possible ways in which said conditions could be addressed. So far, over 8,000 Palestinians have been killed, and doctors have had to operate on injured people without anesthesia due to Israel's blockade. I'm not going to overlook this while talking about the war, and I'm not going to deem this immense suffering and loss of life "necessary" or justified.
On the other hand, I think it is crucial to consider the larger context of the 75-year-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Israel's decades-long illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, its turning Gaza into an open-air prison, and its bombardment campaign that has killed multiple times more noncombatants than Hamas' attack did. I condemn both the attack and Israel's actions that have, for many years, resulted in disproportionate suffering and death for Palestinian civilians.
One of the most guaranteed ways to enable radicalism to spread, fester, and grow emboldened in a region is to sustain a status quo of oppression and abuse. This has historically been true for many different countries and conflicts, not just this one. The US tried to use brute force in its "War on Terror" without addressing its foreign policies that contributed to the rise of groups like al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and ISIS, and look how that has worked out after trillions of dollars have been spent and over half a million people have been killed. Radicalism can only be uprooted if the conditions that have given rise to it are addressed; brute force has failed many times before, and I don't think this time will be any different.
Does consideration of the above context make the condemnation "qualified"? I suppose that depends on how one looks at the situation. Whether one considers it "unqualified" or not, though, I think it's essential to both condemn attacks on civilians and not overlook the conditions that led to this point and the possible ways in which said conditions could be addressed. So far, over 8,000 Palestinians have been killed, and doctors have had to operate on injured people without anesthesia due to Israel's blockade. I'm not going to overlook this while talking about the war, and I'm not going to deem this immense suffering and loss of life "necessary" or justified.
Okay. This isn't so key to my argument. We can switch it to relations between Hispanic Americans and Japan.
That's a different topic. Related, but different. The topic you started out with was whether there are still people on both sides of the conflict that are holding out for peace. You brought evidence from two groups from one side of the conflict. Even if one would argue that the majority of Israeli Arabs hold an opposite view of the conflict than most Israeli Jews (and praying that their relatives get out safely doesn't necessarily mean that they hope for a different outcome), that's still evidence that different Israelis get along despite holding different views. But what about Israelis (Jews, Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, etc) and Gazans/PAers?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Why? IMOP its an issue of racial jealousy. The self-destructive Palestinians are jealous of the Jews and hate them with the same passion as a slighted jealous lover with an inferiority complex.
Do you think Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians
played a role too....not just Muslims' jealousy of Jews?
To unleash the creativity of those who struggle with "unqualified."
idea
Question Everything
There are statements going around such as:
"We will wipe this thing called Hamas, ISIS-Gaza, off the face of the earth. It will cease to exist." - Gallant
What is different from the above with statement like:
"We will wipe this thing called Jew, off the face of the earth. It will cease to exist." -
Wow how did you invent that one so quickly
Why not just say you only want answers you approve of?
I almost fruballed it for cleverness.
But you know....it seemed to reinforce
dismissal of Palestinian humanity.
If were narrower, it would still be solicitation
for cheering Israel's brutal policies.
Imagine a Palestinian advocate starting a thread
entitled....
"Should Israel be condemned for killing babies?"
Tempers flare at questions designed to make
a provocative claim, rather than seeking answers
& productive conversation.
But I gave a thoughtful (albeit controversial)
answer anyway. That's how I roll.
Last edited:
Colt
Well-Known Member
No, I think Israel has been wise to insulate themselves from people who seek their destruction. The slaughter and kidnapping of men, children and grandmothers has only reemphasized why Israel has built barriers between themselves and neo-Islamic fundamentalists.
This poll you posted, which currently shows 91.7% (22 to 2) of respondents in agreement with your statement, has given me hope. I hadn't been posting much on the forum lately, because I have been depressed since the war with Hamas started and from thinking that I might be unwelcome here for being a Jew who loves Israel.
I am not blind to Israel's wrongs against the Palestinian people, but I understand that the distrust and fatal estrangement between both Israelis and Palestinians was worsened by the actions of Hamas on October 7th, which became the catalyst for this heartbreaking war.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you, @Jayhawker Soule. I pray not for a perfect world, but for a better one.
Last edited:
At the risk of derailing the thread, your post brings to mind a brief interaction I had with a young Palestinian about a decade ago as we worked together on an Iftar in the Synagogue initiative.
During a break in one of our meetings, I found myself standing in front of a relatively large map of Israel hanging on the wall. He walked up behind me, put his hand on my shoulder, and, after a few moments, quietly asked: "What do you see?" It was a rhetorical question -- a gentle question to reming me that we were seeing different countries but countries that we loved.
You are more than welcome here.
How would you envision their achieving peace?
InChrist
Free4ever
I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’m wondering whether the majority of Palestinians do support Hamas. From my understanding children are indoctrinated into hatred toward Jews from young childhood and that killing Jews brings rewards. If the focus of the culture is to raise Jihadists, then it’s hard to imagine those being steeped in such hatred with a mission, would desire peace with those they have been taught to hate so intensely. I also have not read any articles or heard many or any Palestinian voices or
protests demanding Hamas release the abducted hostages. I’m not aware of any regular Palestinian civilians coming forth to reveal where the hostages may be hidden. I have also read that ordinary civilians of Gaza participated in the brutality…
“I saw a scene where a Gazan civilian chopped off a man's head. It took him several attempts to detach the head from the body," he said.
According to a video that was posted online, Gazans used a bulldozer to tear down a section of Israel's border fence, and hundreds of unarmed men and boys—wearing T-shirts, baseball caps, sneakers, and flip-flops—crossed into the country. They came mostly on foot but also by bicycle, scooter, and motorcycle. Someone appears to have brought a donkey. Other online videos show ordinary Gazans taking selfieson and around Israeli tanks and ransackinga military base on the border. All the while, cries of "Allahu Akbar" rang out.
The mob soon arrived in nearby Israeli communities that Hamas was already terrorizing. Security footage and Hamas videos from Be'eri, Nir Oz, and other kibbutzim capture dozens of ordinary-looking Gazans looting and taking part in killings and kidnappings, including of women and children.
Some of these people extorted their victims. Jacqueline Glicksman, an 81-year-old resident of Kibbutz Ein HaShlosha, told the Free Beacon that three teenage boys from Gaza broke through the window of her safe room and demanded money. She told them she had none, and minutes later, her house was burned down. Glicksman somehow managed to jump out of the broken window in her pajamas and run to safety. But her friend, Silvia Mirensky, 80, was killed in an arson attack next door.
Meanwhile, in the streets of Gaza, crowds greeted the returning kidnappers as conquering heroes, online videos show. Some Gazans taunted the Israeli hostages and defiled the dead as they were paraded through the streets.”
'Just as Cruel as the Terrorists': Many Ordinary Palestinians Joined in Hamas's Atrocities Against Israel
TEL AVIV—As Hamas terrorists carried out a highly choreographed massacre in Israel on Oct. 7, they received a source of support that amplified the horror that took place that day. A mob of ordinary Palestinians spontaneously joined in what became the deadliest pogrom against Jews since the...
freebeacon.com
By its racist actions including generations of slavery, lynching and murdering blacks, the United States created Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King. By the holocaust, Adolf Hitler created the state of Israel. By it's genocide against Native Americans, violations of treaty, forced expulsion into "reservations", taking children out of their culture and indoctrinating them etc, the United States violated its founding ideals but there was no Hamas and no Native Martin Luther King.
Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas - one body, two arms are an existential threat. Maybe not today because Iran did not act as it threatened but they're working on becoming one. To treat Hamas as an independent actor are ignoring Iran's role.
Reading the history of the region, the number of failed opportunities for peace could break anyone's heart.
McBell
Unbound
One side completely genocidingthe other side.
IMO they have been fighting so long they do not want anything but the complete and utter unconditional surrender and removal of the other.
It seems we're agreeing.
I like this so far.
To "Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas", you must add "Israel, Palestinians, & USA"
It's a complex system (set of relationships), but there for all to see.
Some highlights....
- Israel is USA's favored child in the ME.
- USA is the dog wagged by the tail (Israel).
- Hamas is a reaction to decades of Israeli oppression of Palestinians.
- USA is the major existential threat to Iran.
(The '53 CIA coup in Iran, killing nearly a million Iranians in USA's proxy
war using Iraq & WMDs, threatening to obliterate all Iranians.)
- Israel lobbying USA to attack Iran.
- Iran seeks power in the ME by supporting or attacking various groups
- Israel assassinates Iranians.
- USA's history of hostility towards Islam & Muslims, fueled by
Christian & Jewish fundamentalists & even 'progressives'.
USA's government doesn't accept responsibility for
its deadly & ham fisted incompetent ME policies.
It doesn't even understand that it's done wrong.
Any positive change must start with the major powers.
Both Israel & USA must step from their failed knee jerk
policies, & consider the morality of treating Muslims as
sub-humans who deserve only violent boots on necks.
Value their lives as much as Christians & Jews.
Seek reciprocal respect.
Eventually, it will happen.
Last edited: