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What's purpose to lable this DIR"Evolution Vs. Creationism"

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree but to say they are totally distinct or to have no relation would be a falsehood. I understand the danger in bringing up that notion in debate as it is easily misconstrued.
There are relations of course. But evolution through descent with modification followed by selection via differential fitness is not an adequate explanation for abiogenesis as it is for speciation and adaptation. The other example will be origination of eukaryotes through endosymbiosis. I think it is important to underline what can and cannot be explained by the theory of evolution so that there is no misunderstanding.
I do not think Godobeyer understands basics of biology or evolution well enough for me to present a fully fleshed out and nuanced view. Talking about calculus before mastering addition and multiplication is not conducive to learning. :)
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
There are relations of course. But evolution through descent with modification followed by selection via differential fitness is not an adequate explanation for abiogenesis as it is for speciation and adaptation. The other example will be origination of eukaryotes through endosymbiosis. I think it is important to underline what can and cannot be explained by the theory of evolution so that there is no misunderstanding.
I do not think Godobeyer understands basics of biology or evolution well enough for me to present a fully fleshed out and nuanced view. Talking about calculus before mastering addition and multiplication is not conducive to learning. :)
I"ll keep that in mind.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
edited .Does the theory of evolution require an explanation of origins? No? Does it overlap and connect? Of course it does. Common ancestry, a primary claim of evolution, is that all life has a common ancestor. That common ancestor has everything to do with the origin of life. I am not saying that evolution itself in common practice of study such as the way the evolution of man or diseases touches on the origin of life but it most certainly does within the fields of the study of early and beginning life.
It is correct to say that the understanding of the history and trajectory of life as elucidated by evolution (common ancestory, divergence of life into three main branches with some specific branches deeper rooted than others, trajectory of evolution of conserved genes and metabolic pathways) provide crucial information in guiding and constraining the search space for plausible ways in which life originated on earth. But there are also other important constraints coming from planetary geology, atmospheric sciences and branches of cosmology that investigate the early conditions in the solar system. These jointly provide the bounds within which non-equilibrium thermodynamics, organic chemistry, geochemistry and complexity sciences search for the most likely mechanism for abiogenesis.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
It is correct to say that the understanding of the history and trajectory of life as elucidated by evolution (common ancestory, divergence of life into three main branches with some specific branches deeper rooted than others, trajectory of evolution of conserved genes and metabolic pathways) provide crucial information in guiding and constraining the search space for plausible ways in which life originated on earth. But there are also other important constraints coming from planetary geology, atmospheric sciences and branches of cosmology that investigate the early conditions in the solar system. These jointly provide the bounds within which non-equilibrium thermodynamics, organic chemistry, geochemistry and complexity sciences search for the most likely mechanism for abiogenesis.
I agree with what is said here. But the point I was making earlier is that to disregard the connection between the study of evolution and the study of the origin of life is a mistake often made by defenders of evolution when discussing the topic.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with what is said here. But the point I was making earlier is that to disregard the connection between the study of evolution and the study of the origin of life is a mistake often made by defenders of evolution when discussing the topic.
Cool. :)
I think we have converged in our positions more or less.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Hello everybody :)

I discuss this with some member, they told me theory of evolution had nothing to do with origin/start of life. it's abiogenesis.

I thought this DIR main goal is about how life appears,according to two different methods "believe in God is Creator, believe in nature is creator", yes or not ?

Since evolution had nothing to do with life appears why compare/oppose it to creation ?
So,What is the purpose of discuss evolution VS creationism ?
In the broader sense of the term evolution can certainly mean evolution of the cosmos and everything in it. When discussing evolution of animals is more specifically biological evolution. Of course the line between life and non-life is very blurry.

Kind of like determining when the wavelength of blue(475) becomes green(510). I think somewhere its blue-green.
Blue_Spectrum.jpg
Green_Spectrum.jpg
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
edited .Does the theory of evolution require an explanation of origins? No? Does it overlap and connect? Of course it does. Common ancestry, a primary claim of evolution, is that all life has a common ancestor. That common ancestor has everything to do with the origin of life. I am not saying that evolution itself in common practice of study such as the way the evolution of man or diseases touches on the origin of life but it most certainly does within the fields of the study of early and beginning life.
Sorry about the post you're replying to here. I was unexpectedly interrupted for several hours before I had a chance to finish it. My full response is now posted above. (#119)

As for your questions here:

Does the theory of evolution require an explanation of origins?
No it does not.

Does it overlap and connect?
You'll have to explain what you mean by overlap (how?) and connect (in what manner?)

Of course it does
Then I await an explanation.

Common ancestry, a primary claim of evolution, is that all life has a common ancestor. That common ancestor has everything to do with the origin of life.
Whatever it may be: an act of god (special creation), panspermia, or abiogenesis.


.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
In the broader sense of the term evolution can certainly mean evolution of the cosmos and everything in it. When discussing evolution of animals is more specifically biological evolution. Of course the line between life and non-life is very blurry.
Only blurry in the sense that there's a lack of good consensus of the traits that define life. Here are the most common an organism needs to qualify as living.

An organization comprising a cell or cells the preform complex biochemical processes so as to maintain their structure and function on their own

Metabolism

Homeostasis

Growth

Reproduction

Response to stimuli

Ability to evolve
source


.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
How I reject science,please no !
Should I go to jail because of this guilty decision :p

Btw
Its does not proven change of kind !

Well I don't know about the jail melodrama. 'Change of kind' isn't a scientific concept. In science terms are well-defined and clear when they can be, although there are often difficulties with this in biology. But the term 'kind' doesn't really mean anything.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Well I don't know about the jail melodrama. 'Change of kind' isn't a scientific concept. In science terms are well-defined and clear when they can be, although there are often difficulties with this in biology. But the term 'kind' doesn't really mean anything.
Good to know.
So I am innocent, at this point :p

In what point exactly you think I don't accept evolution ?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
In the broader sense of the term evolution can certainly mean evolution of the cosmos and everything in it. When discussing evolution of animals is more specifically biological evolution. Of course the line between life and non-life is very blurry.

Kind of like determining when the wavelength of blue(475) becomes green(510). I think somewhere its blue-green.
Blue_Spectrum.jpg
Green_Spectrum.jpg
Whatever

Does evolution and creationism had same object of "original of life" ?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Well if someone's written a legitimate explanation of something, to respond with 'whatever' is just rude. I'm sure you can figure out how to do better yourself.
lol

"Whatever" is rude respond according to you, good to know,for sure I will use it always when I reply to.
How about "when ever" ?

Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever :D
 

Kirran

Premium Member
lol

"Whatever" is rude respond according to you, good to know,for sure I will use it always when I reply to.
How about "when ever" ?

Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever,Whatever :D

If you're getting a bit carried away with this, leave RF alone and have a cup of tea or something. Or coffee, or whatever's normal to drink in Algeria. The UK, of course, drinks tea.

For when you're in a more level frame of mind, it is the use of the term 'whatever' as a dismissal that is rude, as opposed to the word in and of itself. Whenever does not have this same connotation.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Its was just curious question , not suggestion to change name :)

Yes, I understand. I think it is worth some consideration, though. "Science and religion" used to have a "vs" in there too, a few years ago. It was changed because it implied a necessary contradiction between the two, when there is none. The same case could be made of this particular subforum. :D
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
No it does not.
As I answered to my own question.
You'll have to explain what you mean by overlap (how?) and connect (in what manner?)

Then I await an explanation.
The study of early life is still the study of biological evolution. How it came to be comes down to determining what early life was like and where it came from. The very very beginings of abiogensis mostly deal with thermodynamics and chemistry. Once we get to early forms of rudamentary processes that resemble heredity we get into a more grey area of whati s biology and what is no biology. Self replicating protiens that gradually become more and more advanced to the point of developing lipid bilayes to become more distinct as well as the development of what can be describe as a simpler form of RNA appears and again I ask if you still don't see the connection between the study of evolutino and abiogensis. In fact it usess evolution as a basis for the theory. Without evolution there is no abiogensis. Nothing in the theory makes any sense without evolution.

Just to recap.
1. Evolutionary processes did not start with life. IT started prior to life during the grey period. To suggest otherwise suggests special creation which is unscientific.
2. The basis for abiolgenisis is nearly 100% rooted in evolution with helping hands from other branches of science such as thermodynamics and geology.
3. It is the study of the beginigng of evolution. Abiogensis, especially when talking about the tail end of it just before it becomes life as well as having the conversation of where we draw that line (much harder than one would think and is still debated today)
4. You will not quote me saying that abiogensis and evolution do not have their differences. The study of life a million years ago and how it changed is fundamentally different than how we study the origin of life. But you cannot say they are not connected. You cannot say they have nothing to do with each other.
Whatever it may be: an act of god (special creation), panspermia, or abiogenesis.
.
Do you know what that means when you list these three?
Special creation (god) is not considered in science. IF we have evidence of it great it will no longer be special creation but just creation with measurable and defensible points. But this is already thrown out of the window when talking in the context of a science. Even if you believe in theistic evolution where god's guiding hand used natural processes to bring about evolution you still have no need to believe in special creation as you could then simply believe that the creation of life is as abiogenisis suggests and that it was simply god's will via natural processes.

Panspermia is not really supported by any evidence. Its "possible" through big leaps. Typically any seroius conversation is dfiscussing Mars having developed early forms of life and it was some how jetted over here through a massive collision of some kind at just the right time for Earth to accept life. This seems far less likely than it simply developing on Earth. It also kicks the can down the road. If it wasn't abiogensis here then it was abiogensis there. Still back to abiogensis but simply adding unecessary steps.

Lastly you have abiogensis. The only real explanation one has when talking evolution with any degree of scientific or empirical judgement. Any other discussion is really non-scientific with the only exception being "the unknown". Saying we don't know for sure is a correct answer but it is also a misleading one. We do have a "best scientific explanation" for the phenomenon. Unless there is a god who has neglected to show himself in any other way shape or form except to start life, life must have started on its own. That is a fact.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
If you're getting a bit carried away with this, leave RF alone and have a cup of tea or something. Or coffee, or whatever's normal to drink in Algeria. The UK, of course, drinks tea.

For when you're in a more level frame of mind, it is the use of the term 'whatever' as a dismissal that is rude, as opposed to the word in and of itself. Whenever does not have this same connotation.
It's impolite that you disrespect with people just because they disagree with your opinion.

I accept all opinion with all respect,I am here to discuss,make a tea and comeback when you relax.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
It's impolite that you disrespect with people just because they disagree with your opinion.

I accept all opinion with all respect,I am here to discuss,make a tea and comeback when you relax.

If you'd point to an example where I did that I'll gladly apologise. And I'll have a cup of tea as well.
 
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