What's so great about democracy and human rights?

[Mycroft]

Points 1, 2, and 5 are problems with capitalism, not democracy or human rights.

If democracy can be ill-affected by capitalism, then democracy doesn't work.

Human rights are great though. Without them women are controlled, humans are property, caste systems exist, and inequality runs rampant. However, there is a problem, which is nationalism, which has convinced many (especially in America), that their national ways are the pinnacle of human rights, even though their is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.
A system that is based on profits and wealth is also another grave problem, because it cannot work unless you have a class of poor, and this class is largely determined by nothing more than circumstances of birth.

I didn't mention anything about human rights.

 

[Mycroft]

Okie dokie.

Was that satisfaction? Or sarcasm?

 

[lovemuffin]

Fair enough. I concede the point on the Obama thing.

Thank you. I will now stop pestering you obnoxiously (True story, at first I just typed "I will not stop pestering you obnoxiously" but I decided to correct it...)

 

[Mycroft]

Thank you. I will now stop pestering you obnoxiously (True story, at first I just typed "I will not stop pestering you obnoxiously" but I decided to correct it...)

And the rest of what I said?

 

[YmirGF]

Was that satisfaction? Or sarcasm?

Mild disdain, but take it however you like.

 

[Mycroft]

Mild disdain, but take it however you like.

You disdain the idea of people being educated to make better decisions?

 

[lovemuffin]

And the rest of what I said?

I think you have pointed out difficulties with democracy that are real problems, but I think Bunnyip may have succinctly responded to many of them when he said that what was so great about democracy was the alternatives. Both the problems cited and the defense based on an evaluation of alternatives, with their own problems, are fairly well explored ideas, of course. I guess I don't have your fondness for radical political change as far as envisioning a completely different system. I probably don't have much that's useful to add to the general topic...

 

[YmirGF]

You disdain the idea of people being educated to make better decisions?

Not at all. I disdain your unworkable solutions. It sounds good on paper, or on a screen. Working out the pesky details would be problematic, at best.

 

[Mycroft]

I think you have pointed out difficulties with democracy that are real problems, but I think Bunnyip may have succinctly responded to many of them when he said that what was so great about democracy was the alternatives. Both the problems cited and the defense based on an evaluation of alternatives, with their own problems, are fairly well explored ideas, of course. I guess I don't have your fondness for radical political change as far as envisioning a completely different system. I probably don't have much that's useful to add to the general topic...

Yeah but the alternatives that are available aren't the only ones we have to choose from. We can develop new alternatives.

 

[Mycroft]

It sounds good on paper, or on a screen. Working out the pesky details would be problematic, at best.

And that's a reason not to try because...?

 

[YmirGF]

And that's a reason not to try because...?

IF done over a period of several generations... it might work... maybe... The main problem is getting everyone on board with the idea that these changes are not just wise, but necessary. That will be a hard sell.

 

[Mycroft]

IF done over a period of several generations... it might work... maybe...

Nothing good comes quickly or easily.

 

[YmirGF]

Nothing good comes quickly or easily.

But human nature tends to become impatient when change does not happen quickly enough... that's when we get our monsters who come to the forefront...

 

[Mycroft]

But human nature tends to become impatient when change does not happen quickly enough... that's when we get our monsters who come to the forefront...

I don't think that's an inherent thing. I think that's learned behaviour from a self-serving society that cares about what can be done for them, and how fast can it be done.

But even so, that is still no reason not to try.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think that's an inherent thing. I think that's learned behaviour from a self-serving society that cares about what can be done for them, and how fast can it be done.

But even so, that is still no reason not to try.

Again... at the risk of being a broken record, how do you convince people that such changes are necessary, desirable or even good. You do understand that it will take an effort from within the current political makeup to make these changes, right?

 

[dust1n]

This I agree with. IMO I believe that you shouldn't be allowed to vote if you can't even name your Representatives in Congress.

I was under the impression I only had one Representative in Congress.

 

[dust1n]

Of course. But that is only more evidence for why Democracy doesn't work.

But nothing does work. So....

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I don't think that's an inherent thing. I think that's learned behaviour from a self-serving society that cares about what can be done for them, and how fast can it be done.

But even so, that is still no reason not to try.

Certainly it's no reason not to try; I personally find your ideas commendable, but the question remains, what methods are you recommending to use to convince people that they should give up on their self-serving motivations, and choose the course of action that would do the things that you are suggesting? Are you going to rely on an imperfect democracy (representative or direct), which whether you like it or not relies on a political process of people collecting and discussing facts and values and preferences (and the possibility of demagoguery, influence peddling, appeals to emotions, and other rhetorical tricks), or are you going to opt for a dictatorship to impose either the incentives that could get people to change, or at least do away with the political discussions (and which is likely to ignore the higher ideals and opt for choices that reinforce the power structure of those in power), or do you have another alternative in mind?

 

[YmirGF]

But nothing does work. So....

That's why we have to educate the little snowflakes to make sure they make the decisions we deem to be well and good. We know what is best, so it is almost an obligation for us to indoctrinate our little munchkins to ideals they cannot possibly conform to... or something...

 

[YmirGF]

Certainly it's no reason not to try; I personally find your ideas commendable, but the question remains, what methods are you recommending to use to convince people that they should give up on their self-serving motivations, and choose the course of action that would do the things that you are suggesting? Are you going to rely on an imperfect democracy (representative or direct), which whether you like it or not relies on a political process of people collecting and discussing facts and values and preferences (and the possibility of demagoguery, influence peddling, appeals to emotions, and other rhetorical tricks), or are you going to opt for a dictatorship to impose either the incentives that could get people to change, or at least do away with the political discussions (and which is likely to ignore the higher ideals and opt for choices that reinforce the power structure of those in power), or do you have another alternative in mind?

Pretty much my take too. It's not what he/she/it is saying is not laudable. The great problem is how do you carry this out? Realistically, one would have to work through the existing system ... the alternative is not pretty... Likewise, it's not like the current system is simply going to roll over and die... as there are far too many who have a vested interest in it.