• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What's the Big Deal with Israel?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You mean it isn't a fact that Israel imports Jews to Palestine just because they're Jews ?
Why to lie, it is a fact that Jews came to Palestine from several countries and Palestine
was never their homeland and their excuses was that God gave them this land.
And exactly where did I supposedly "lie"? Aren't you aware that Jews never fully left "Palestine"? Are you aware that we didn't "import" Jews there as they came on their own back to they homeland, which even shows up in your Qu'ran? Or maybe you never read it or don't understand it? Maybe you should get into Qu'ran study and read what the text actually says? If it's too difficult for you to read it, here's a source that can help summarize our presence there: http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html
 

dust1n

Zindīq
"Oh noes we give Israel money with which it then buys our products aka weapons, they are totally screwing us"

Oy vey mir.

If I give Stan $100,000 dollars, and he buys $100,000 goods from me, all I've achieved is losing $100,000 in goods. We mine as well just give Israel free weapons... So yeah, it's no less screwing us than if we were giving free money... Except the tax payer gives the money to Israel, and arms manufacturers get all the money back. What a great deal.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually, it's quite similar to the Marshal Plan after WWII, and this very much help the U.S. besides helping western Europe. We give money, they buy mostly our products, thus stimulating both our economies-- repeat.

And we just don't give money away for no reason, btw, as there's much mutual cooperation and sharing going on between us.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
If I give Stan $100,000 dollars, and he buys $100,000 goods from me, all I've achieved is losing $100,000 in goods. We mine as well just give Israel free weapons... So yeah, it's no less screwing us than if we were giving free money... Except the tax payer gives the money to Israel, and arms manufacturers get all the money back. What a great deal.

You do realise that this provides work to US citizens right?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Actually, it's quite similar to the Marshal Plan after WWII, and this very much help the U.S. besides helping western Europe. We give money, they buy mostly our products, thus stimulating both our economies-- repeat.

And we just don't give money away for no reason, btw, as there's much mutual cooperation and sharing going on between us.

I don't disagree, but to pretend like paying tax payer money to Israel, who will then spend the money on American goods (which is only true for a portion of the aid), the money of which is given to manufacturers, and not tax payers, is somehow a good deal for me, when I have no vested interested in Holy Dirtland, would be a bit disingenuous.

At the end of the day, it's an extra ten dollars a year I pay Israel to help them out, which, I don't mind helping out an ally. But, I would suspect that Israel to act less expansionist, and to work out a two-state solution. And I would appreciate it if we held the same standards to Gaza and the West Bank.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
You do realise that this provides work to US citizens right?

Um, at the expense of the taxpayer? If I'm going to pay Americans to do work with tax money, why would I hope I get the opportunity to spend my tax payer money to help manufacturer firearms and war planes for a different country involved in a conflict that affects me in no way whatsoever, as opposed to just about any other job?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If I give Stan $100,000 dollars, and he buys $100,000 goods from me, all I've achieved is losing $100,000 in goods. We mine as well just give Israel free weapons... So yeah, it's no less screwing us than if we were giving free money... Except the tax payer gives the money to Israel, and arms manufacturers get all the money back. What a great deal.

So, then people are surprised to find that weapons manufacturing companies are big supporters of AIPAC.
TOM
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Um, at the expense of the taxpayer? If I'm going to pay Americans to do work with tax money, why would I hope I get the opportunity to spend my tax payer money to help manufacturer firearms and war planes for a different country involved in a conflict that affects me in no way whatsoever, as opposed to just about any other job?

Exactly.
Instead of spending a gazillion dollars fighting people who we don't know or understand, how about spending it fighting unsafe drinking water, illiteracy, disease, or any of the host of real problems the human race is beset with?
Instead of being the Great Satan we could be the Great Santa.
I can't help but think that would be better for our own US security than yet another ill begotten war.
:(
Tom
 
Last edited:

dust1n

Zindīq
So, then people are surprised to find that weapons manufacturing companies are big supporters of AIPAC.
TOM

Oh, I suspect you'd have a hard time finding who exactly contributes to AIPAC, but obviously, I suspect it to be any different from any American lobby, in that the people who contribute to it are expecting to see results in their favor, which would obviously financial incentives.

That being said, we give money to countries for our own desired outcomes, and less for any high-minded reason.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Exactly.
Instead of spending a gazillion dollars fighting people who don't know or understand, how about spending it fighting unsafe drinking water, illiteracy, disease, or any of the host of real problems the human race is beset with?
Instead of being the Great Satan we could be the Great Santa.
I can't help but think that would be better for our own US security than yet another ill begotten war.
:(
Tom

Well distributed non-military AID I suspect could go a long way. In my experience, most people who have three meals a day, an access to shelter and education, and a way to work, don't want to give that up to go die in a war over idealism, and religious idealism on top of that. Obviously not always, but mostly.

It would be certainly harder for the world to hate us when we are dropping food and not bombs on their homelands.

The biggest challenge there is just to make sure AID money doesn't get siphoned off by corruption.

None of it really bothers me to be honest, except in context of the larger spending plan on our government. To think how many times I've heard that America can't afford Universal Healthcare, but for some reason we throw billions of dollars at poorly implemented, dumb plans, and have no problem unquestioningly doing that, to be quite insulting to people who basically can't afford it in the first place.

It's that sort of stupidity that makes have little interest in being an American, let alone contributing to America in anyway.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
But, I would suspect that Israel to act less expansionist, and to work out a two-state solution. And I would appreciate it if we held the same standards to Gaza and the West Bank.

Have you missed history? The Arabs have been offered a two-state solution four times and they've rejected it every time. It is the Palestinians that are refusing to be neighbors with Israel. http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466
Stop assuming that Israel is preventing a two-state solution. Start asking when will the arabs accept it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I suspect you'd have a hard time finding who exactly contributes to AIPAC, but obviously, I suspect it to be any different from any American lobby, in that the people who contribute to it are expecting to see results in their favor, which would obviously financial incentives.
My post was largely a response to two different opinions about AIPAC I have read on RF recently.
@Godobeyer thinks AIPAC is funded by Jewish Zionists.
@RocketJSquirell thinks AIPAC is funded by "regular joes" like him.
Neither is true. AIPAC is funded primarily by people who think that they will get something out of it.
Tom
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Have you missed history? The Arabs have been offered a two-state solution four times and they've rejected it every time. It is the Palestinians that are refusing to be neighbors with Israel. http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466
Stop assuming that Israel is preventing a two-state solution. Start asking when will the arabs will accept it.

I didn't assume that Israel is preventing a two-state solution, I just don't think that the fact that such an arrangement has been reached yet gives Israel the right to just take more land. The only thing I expect of Israel, atm, is curb further expansion into contested lands in the interim and to loosen the blockade and occupation enough to where Palestinian economy can actually work at all.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Um, at the expense of the taxpayer? If I'm going to pay Americans to do work with tax money, why would I hope I get the opportunity to spend my tax payer money to help manufacturer firearms and war planes for a different country involved in a conflict that affects me in no way whatsoever, as opposed to just about any other job?

You now know how weapon manufacturing works in every single country on earth. Good for you. :)

Usually known as subsidies.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
My post was largely a response to two different opinions about AIPAC I have read on RF recently.
@Godobeyer thinks AIPAC is funded by Jewish Zionists.
@RocketJSquirell thinks AIPAC is funded by "regular joes" like him.
Neither is true. AIPAC is funded primarily by people who think that they will get something out of it.
Tom

It's a mixture of all. I mean, if I wanted to donate to money AIPAC right now I could. I suspect there are many Jewish people and Christians in America who donate simply because they belief that Israel needs help, etc etc... By, yeah, it's a lobby. It's primary function is to get policies enacted via the use of money and funding campaigns, and obviously if said policy is going to help me in a way greater than my contribution, than obviously anyone would take it.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
You now know how weapon manufacturing works in every single country on earth. Good for you. :)

Usually known as subsidies.

Sure. Except usually, when we sell weapons to various countries, we don't give them money to buy the weapons first. Either way, I find it quite problematic that my country sees fit to spend taxpayer money to arm the world.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Either way, I find it quite problematic that my country sees fit to spend taxpayer money to arm the world.
This is the point.
I don't like being a citizen of a major supplier of death and destruction. I especially resent being forced to pay for it.
I don't care about Israel nearly enough. They made the bed and they can lie in it. I detest being made to pick up their tab.
Personally, I think that if I am sinning in any hell bound way it is because I don't sufficiently oppose my government's foreign policy. Nothing to do with who I have sex with.
Tom
 

dust1n

Zindīq
This is the point.
I don't like being a citizen of a major supplier of death and destruction. I especially resent being forced to pay for it.
I don't care about Israel nearly enough. They made the bed and they can lie in it. I detest being made to pick up their tab.
Personally, I think that if I am sinning in any hell bound way it is because I don't sufficiently oppose my government's foreign policy. Nothing to do with who I have sex with.
Tom

We are very in much in agreement. It's the totality of American foreign policy that is haphazardly done, and around things that absolutely have nothing to do with. Why do I need to pay for arms to help the Indonesian government murder communists so it doesn't become communists? Why do I need to pay to overthrow the governments of Panama and Equador? Why doesn't the taxpayer get a tax benefit from all the weapons they help sell to the world, when they are the ones who invested and payed for it?

Utterly senseless.

Anyways, I'll be satisfied if I can expatriate by the time of 40, and maybe wash some of this blood off my hands, and then I'll go work hard in a country that isn't bogged down in international conflicts.
 

idea

Question Everything
"This chart shows where the US’s $5.9 billion in foreign military aid goes each year


original.jpg


source

That's 53% of all foreign military aid! . .53

The above is outdated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Military_Financing#By_country

Scroll down to "by country"

From 2003 to 2007 Iraq was the largest beneficiary of FMF, since then it is Afghanistan.[2] Until 2003 it was Israel. Other countries in the Middle East and Greater Middle East (including Pakistan, Jordan, and especially Egypt) are among the other major recipients of FMF funds.

I would personally not funnel $ into Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, or any of the terrorist countries. I would rather see it go to Israel.
 
Top