Whats the deal with obummer?

[Dirty Penguin]

honestly, i voted for him. i was really, really excited by what he was saying and promising, and by how he presented himself. i was happy to be able to vote for someone young, articulate, and with a more international perspective than his predecessor.

i also recall a lot of my friends saying things like "the only reason you woundn't vote for him is if you were a racist". so among my white and also non-white friends there was a subtle pressure to vote for him in part to show that you were not a racist, and that you welcomed an African-American into the White House.

did anyone else get this?

I didn't get that in my circle or community. I live here in VA. so I have ties to MD and DC and I can honestly say that no one I encountered brought up race. It was something I had heard here and there on TV and definitely on the web..

 

[Reverend Rick]

They're all thoughts of my own. I happen to agree with liberals, but that's because when you think about the issues with logic and reason, those are the ideas you come up with.

For another instance, the health insurance thing. I look at it from the perspective of what has worked in many different countries. It's very simple when you look at it like that. Many countries use something like a universal system, even if it's not technically one. And those countries do a lot better in the health department than we do because their systems work. I don't believe universal healthcare is good because other liberals say it is. I believe it's good because of the facts, but I know you're not so fond of those little things.

I have a fact for you. It is almost impossible to become rich in these countries you use as examples. The main reason is because of draconian taxes. What is the point of making all this money if you just give it away to the government?

Most rich folks in our country own businesses. The greatest provider of jobs in our country is small business. The reason the economy is slow to improve is because we are trying to choke off the small business person.

But that is the point after all is it not? Everyone should have the same things and the government should provide them to us. You want to live like cattle dependant on your government for everything right?

Wonderful logic mball. :no:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mball1297



They're all thoughts of my own. I happen to agree with liberals, but that's because when you think about the issues with logic and reason, those are the ideas you come up with.

For another instance, the health insurance thing. I look at it from the perspective of what has worked in many different countries. It's very simple when you look at it like that. Many countries use something like a universal system, even if it's not technically one. And those countries do a lot better in the health department than we do because their systems work. I don't believe universal healthcare is good because other liberals say it is. I believe it's good because of the facts, but I know you're not so fond of those little things.

I have a fact for you. It is almost impossible to become rich in these countries you use as examples. The main reason is because of draconian taxes. What is the point of making all this money if you just give it away to the government?

Most rich folks in our country own businesses. The greatest provider of jobs in our country is small business. The reason the economy is slow to improve is because we are trying to choke off the small business person.

But that is the point after all is it not? Everyone should have the same things and the government should provide them to us. You want to live like cattle dependant on your government for everything right?

Wonderful logic mball. :no:

That was kind of random...huh?

I didn't see anything in his response to you about wealth and taxes and "which" countries are you talking about? Surely you can't be talking about Canada, England, France.....etc. One can certainly obtain wealth in these countries. In the case of England and France a large portion of businesses there are small business owners and their country is able to provide health care across the board to everyone. So what if their taxes are high. Do you know how much the average person here in the US pays (monthly) for health insurance w/employer assistance? How about if you have to provide your own insurance?....higher taxes in lieu of high monthly health care premiums and/or high co-pays doesn't really sound that bad. In these tough economic times I'm quite sure you've seen your local government raising taxes.

So the tax (scare tactic) doesn't work because we are already getting hit with higher taxes. Not only do I carry employer assisted insurance but I elected to carry AFLAC because I know that if I am hospitalized regular insurance will only cover but so much leaving me with the rest. And no one is saying the government should just be giving us 'handouts' whenever we want them. Since our government is by the people and for the people we should all want it to work efficiently for us as possible.

We already seem to have a system of 'universal' health care in the country in the form of Medicare. It's not the best system, which seems to needs its own overhaul, but it's there. In addition we have Medicaid which is another one of those programs providing 'universal' health care to low income families.

 

[Magic Man]

I have a fact for you. It is almost impossible to become rich in these countries you use as examples. The main reason is because of draconian taxes. What is the point of making all this money if you just give it away to the government?

Let's try a real fact, like for instance, the fact that it's quite possible to become rich in said countries. The proof is that there are rich people in said countries. Even for you, this is a ridiculous statement and argument.

Just so you know, making $1 million and giving half to the government still means you take home $500,000. Plus, with that system, you're saving money on education, health care and many other things that that money goes towards.

Most rich folks in our country own businesses. The greatest provider of jobs in our country is small business. The reason the economy is slow to improve is because we are trying to choke off the small business person.

Riiiight.

But that is the point after all is it not? Everyone should have the same things and the government should provide them to us. You want to live like cattle dependant on your government for everything right?

Wonderful logic mball. :no:

What is it with you? I know you're capable of understanding how stupid your strawman is. Why do you refuse to allow yourself to see it? I've never said anything close to that.

If a guy making $50,000 a year pays 25% in taxes, he takes home $37,500. If a guy making $500,000 a year pays 50% in taxes, he takes home $250,000. Last time I checked the second guy was still making $212,500 more than the other guy even after paying twice as much percentage in taxes. So, it would be really good for you to stop with the accusations of communism.

As far as the "living like cattle dependent on the government", I'm not even sure where that's coming from. I didn't realize that wanting the government to provide health care/insurance for everyone could be considered "wanting us to live like cattle dependent on the government".

I'm sorry you refuse to understand the situation correctly, but if you'd just drop the willful ignorance and selfishness, I know you'd be able to understand where you're going wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have a fact for you. It is almost impossible to become rich in these countries you use as examples. The main reason is because of draconian taxes. What is the point of making all this money if you just give it away to the government?

There are indeed plenty of rich people. Taxes are often higher, but at least in some instances the citizens get more for their tax money. I've been paying taxes for awhile now, and other than road "upkeep," I don't see to much of my tax money comming back my way. Plenty of people get food stamps and don't even look for work, but yet when I applied to help myself through a financial pinch last year, I was told I make too much.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Let's try a real fact, like for instance, the fact that it's quite possible to become rich in said countries. The proof is that there are rich people in said countries. Even for you, this is a ridiculous statement and argument.

Sure there are rich folks in other countries. That does not mean it is still possible to be born poor and become rich though does it? Your proof sucks. It is you that is being ridiculous.

Why is it so many immigrants can come to America with NOTHING and work hard and own businesses within a few years and they cannot even speak our language?

Why is it all these so called "smart people" who know it all needs the governments assistance to even see a doctor?

We have raised a generation in America that is too lazy to work and has had everything handed to them. Now that they are adults, they want the government to be their mommy and daddy.

 

[Magic Man]

Sure there are rich folks in other countries. That does not mean it is still possible to be born poor and become rich though does it? Your proof sucks. It is you that is being ridiculous.

No, that's OK, we can change up the argument. No problem. OK, so it's also quite possible to become rich in those countries. The proof is that many people have become rich in those countries. If you think that's not the case, then please go ahead and show me some facts that show that it's impossible to go from poor to rich in other countries.

Why is it so many immigrants can come to America with NOTHING and work hard and own businesses within a few years and they cannot even speak our language?

Because they're coming from countries where the economic and business situation is much worse than here in the U.S.? Probably the same reason many of those immigrants go to those other countries we're talking about?

The reason they're successful when they are is because they work 80 hours a week, share their apartment or house with 6-10 people and don't have health insurance.

The problem is you assume that it's just that easy. There are plenty of immigrants who come here and don't become successful.

Why is it all these so called "smart people" who know it all needs the governments assistance to even see a doctor?

Because they can't afford medical insurance. That was easy.

We have raised a generation in America that is too lazy to work and has had everything handed to them. Now that they are adults, they want the government to be their mommy and daddy.

Yes, we know. Everyone these days is lazy, everyone wants a hand-out, blah, blah, blah. I believe it was you who said "Saying something over and over does not make it so". Maybe you should listen to your own advice. No matter how much you repeat this drivel, it's never going to be true.

 

[YamiB.]

Sure there are rich folks in other countries. That does not mean it is still possible to be born poor and become rich though does it? Your proof sucks. It is you that is being ridiculous.

Why is it so many immigrants can come to America with NOTHING and work hard and own businesses within a few years and they cannot even speak our language?

Why is it all these so called "smart people" who know it all needs the governments assistance to even see a doctor?

We have raised a generation in America that is too lazy to work and has had everything handed to them. Now that they are adults, they want the government to be their mommy and daddy.

First of all your idea about people being poor and thinking that government run programs because they are lazy is completely baseless. I've seen it refuted to you multiple times and never seen a proper reply, you just have your fantasy world and you will continue to live in it no matter what the facts are.

I'd like to see the evidence that you're basing your statements on. Typically America is found to either have worse mobility or equal mobility to European countries, not vastly superior.

The myth of economic mobility

 

[Reverend Rick]

Hmmmmmm,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

 

[Zephyr]

Hmmmmmm,

Economic mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh yes, the great American mobility. Where a whole 1% of people born into poor families have a chance to reach the top 5%, while those in the top quintile have 22 times the chance. Where 35% percent of people born in the middle three never get a chance to leave where they were born, and for those in the bottom have a 42% chance of staying impoverished all their life, and another 42% percent may move up slightly. What a lovely system we have here, where if you are poor there's a higher chance of you being blind than striking rich.

 

[YamiB.]

Hmmmmmm,

Economic mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moving between quintiles is more frequent in the middle quintiles (2-4) than in the lowest and highest quintiles. Of those in one of the quintiles 2-4 in 1996, approximately 35% stayed in the same quintile; and approximately 22% went up one quintile and down one quintile (moves of more than one quintile are rarer). However, 42% of children born in the bottom quintile are most likely to stay there, and another 42% move up to the second and middle quintile[3]. On the opposite end of the spectrum, 39% of those who were born into the top quintile as children in 1968 are likely to stay there, and 23% end up in the fourth quintile[3]. Children previously from lower-income families had only a 1% chance of having an income that ranks in the top 5%[4]. On the other hand, the children of wealthy families have a 22% chance of reaching the top 5%[4].

Seems to counter your idea that America is a great place for poor children to grow up and become rich.

Using the ratio of an individual’s current income to that of their parent’s, there is no academic consensus whether the United States has less or more relative mobility than other industrialized nations[1][5][6]. According to one study, the income of a person's parents is a great deal more predictive of their own income in the United States than other countries[4]. France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway, and Denmark all have more relative mobility than the US, while only the United Kingdom is shown to have less mobility[1]. According to this study done by Miles Corak, The United States ratio of relative mobility is 1, whereas the other countries mentioned with more mobility have a range of 1.25 (France) to over 3 (Denmark)[1]. However, at least one other recent study has concluded that relative mobility is about the same in the US [7]. Economic mobility in developing nations (such as those in Africa) is thought to be limited by both historical and global economic factors[8]

The conclusions that are quoted from studies there say that America is worse than European countries are equal in economic mobility (the parts I bolded).

Was there a particular point you wanted to quote to prove your point or did you need me to read it to you?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Social mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[YamiB.]

Social mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you want to make an argument quote the relevant portions you want us to respond to. A link to wikipedia on its own is not an argument.

 

[Zephyr]

Social mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Recent researchers collecting data on the economic mobility of families across generations, looked at the probability of reaching a particular income distribution in regards to where their parents were ranked and found that 42 percent of those whose parents were in the bottom quintile ended up in the bottom quintile themselves, 23 percent of them ended in the second quintile, 19 percent in the middle quintile, 11 percent in the fourth quintile and 6 percent in the top quintile.[1] These data indicate the difficulty of upward intergenerational mobility.

I mean, god damn.

E: And to keep it simple, I'm not even going to get into how race, gender, sexual orientation, or disability can influence things...

 

[McBell]

and he whines when it is pointed out that he does not digest facts.....

 

[YamiB.]

and he whines when it is pointed out that he does not digest facts.....

Facts are for lazy people, real Americans are far too busy yanking on their bootstraps.

 

[Zephyr]

Facts are for lazy poor people that just want big government handouts, real Americans are far too busy yanking on their bootstraps.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Falvlun]

Hmmmmmm,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

You do realize that this doesn't exactly support your theory. It's luke-warm, at best.

Here's the relevant portion:

Using the ratio of an individual’s current income to that of their parent’s, there is no academic consensus whether the United States has less or more relative mobility than other industrialized nations[1][5][6]. According to one study, the income of a person's parents is a great deal more predictive of their own income in the United States than other countries[4]. France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway, and Denmark all have more relative mobility than the US, while only the United Kingdom is shown to have less mobility[1]. According to this study done by Miles Corak, The United States ratio of relative mobility is 1, whereas the other countries mentioned with more mobility have a range of 1.25 (France) to over 3 (Denmark)[1]. However, at least one other recent study has concluded that relative mobility is about the same in the US [7].

The very first sentence states that there is no consensus that America is better, or worse, for economic mobility.

There is one study showing America with lower economic mobility than many other countries, and one study showing America has the about the same mobility as the other countries. No studies are given that support America having more mobility.

Additionally, the study posted by Yami B was done more recently than the study stating that mobility was the same.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Was there a particular point you wanted to quote to prove your point or did you need me to read it to you?

Let's be nice and have a civil discussion YamiB :yes:

Yes, there is a trend moving away from "the American dream". Things in America are changing. mball said it best, "they work 80 hours a week and have a dozen people in the house". To that I say, only 80 hours? When you are young, you should work your butt off. Not because of your wage, but because of what those wages can bring. It is seed money. I've said this a million times, it's not what you make, it's what you save!

It's called delayed satisfaction. Work hard, save and invest, kick back and enjoy later. You know, pay to play?

Many younger folks don't want to give their pound of flesh.

This is why less people are making it now and the trends are changing.

Change we can believe in?

 

[Magic Man]

Thanks, guys. I'd respond to the latest chapter of "I'm right and damn the facts!", but you guys have pretty much said what I would.