What's The Difference Between a Vision and a Hallucination?

[DawudTalut]

What's the difference?

Peace be on you.
Mental wandering with no change in morals versus useful information and practical goodness, righteousness.

Sources of both are different.

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"Q5 @ 31:55 Could you please explain the difference between spiritual vision and hallucination? And are they two phenomenon somehow related?"
31:55 @ https://www.alislam.org/v/985.html

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Extra: ...Carbon monoxide poisoning has also been implicated as the cause of apparent haunted houses; symptoms such as delirium and hallucinations have led people suffering poisoning to think they have seen ghosts or to believe their house is haunted..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning

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It is said that at the age of thirty, Zoroaster had a divine vision:
Explanation @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_5.html

 

[Papoon]

Before we completely digress, one tidbit you may find interesting. Since I stopped that drug my Neurologist never prescribed another one and I did my own research and have been taking a certain herbal supplement for management and it has been working wonders with no side effects at all. Ginkgo Biloba. A simple herbal supplement for a few dollars for a three month supply has been doing the job for many months now. Of course, doctors won't tell you that.

Gingko is fantastic for brain health and cognitive function. AND anabolic. I read research somewhere that it is an effective anabolic for older folk. Amazing. It is possibly the most often used single medicine in human history - widely used in China for a long long time. I occasionally grab a few fresh leaves in the Botanic Gardens and chew them as I walk around. Lovely. And not patentable.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Shadow Wolf,

Yes I agree that it's all about brain chemistry. My point was that hallucinogens might alter "normal" brain chemistry in ways that are similar to how brain chemistry is altered when people have "visions".

 

[icehorse]

True.
Also there is an aspect to this not widely realised which I have learned directly, and that is that some skill can be developed in these inner realms. And it is not a pointless skill, nor need it relate to 'religious' ideas.

Psychiatrists and their more effectively treated clients can attest to the fact that some medications will cause improvements in some aspects of functioning, and these improvements remain after cessation of medication. I can give examples of what I mean if you want, but the gist of it is - the brain physically changes.

Tibetan Buddhist practices involve detailed visualization, and I can attest to the fact that these skills do not require drugs.

As for the uses of these skills, there are various which I can report from experience. One is in my primary artistic activity. Generally people are at least aware that there is some faculty of visualisation in any normal brain. Dreaming makes that obvious. Plenty of visual artists clearly imagine what they subsequently produce. I can now 'audialise' very clearly, which as a musician I appreciate muchly. And occasionally I enjoy simply listening to spontaneous music.

Then there are the social applications. In central America there have been (are still I trust) cultures where 'family therapy' involved a shaman using psilocybe mushrooms in the company of the family, and subsequent 'visions' effectively symbolically communicate the situation and it's resolution.

I guess what I am saying is that it is adding or enhancing an innate faculty to the collection of skills a human can develop.

How and why this is so controversial, politically and religiously is a whole other topic ...

Right! So hallucinogenics are used by Shamans all over the world, and in that (shamanic), domain it does seem that the word "vision" is used frequently.

Then there's Ibogaine. I've heard that that's a nasty trip, but I've also heard that a single Ibogaine experience can help addicts get clean.

 

[Papoon]

Right! So hallucinogenics are used by Shamans all over the world, and in that (shamanic), domain it does seem that the word "vision" is used frequently.

Then there's Ibogaine. I've heard that that's a nasty trip, but I've also heard that a single Ibogaine experience can help addicts get clean.

Apparently ibogaine breaks down the neurochemical aspect of suppression of memories of certain kinds.

The transformative aspect of the experience in the Bopono ritual centers on the subject realising and communicating memories of an event which caused such shame that the subject suppressed it.

Freud discovered that mental mechanism too. His work involved giving his subjects cocaine. Although mostly known for it's dopaminergic qualities, cocaine also causes release of vasopressin. Vasopressin is involved in memory recall, particularly long term memory. There are reported cases of instant and lasting remission from amnesia, with a single nasal inhalation of vasopressin.
So....the plot thickens

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And so often because the Big Pharma developers are economically obliged to produce patentable products

Actually, in many instances, the patents are already filled and held even though the drug has not yet been developed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then there's Ibogaine. I've heard that that's a nasty trip, but I've also heard that a single Ibogaine experience can help addicts get clean.

I've no experience with Ibogaine, but the "nasty trip" may be due to the dissociation properties, which can make it feel like you are controlling your own body via remote control. Ketamine (an anesthetic drug) and dextromethorphan (Robitussin) are two more common dissociation trip drugs, and many people who try them don't like them because they leave you feeling detached from your own body.
And, yes, Ibogaine does have research indicating it may help with drug addiction, but actual human studies are lacking thus far.

 

[Papoon]

I've no experience with Ibogaine, but the "nasty trip" may be due to the dissociation properties, which can make it feel like you are controlling your own body via remote control. Ketamine (an anesthetic drug) and dextromethorphan (Robitussin) are two more common dissociation trip drugs, and many people who try them don't like them because they leave you feeling detached from your own body.
And, yes, Ibogaine does have research indicating it may help with drug addiction, but actual human studies are lacking thus far.

There is an excellent documentary in the "Tribe" series which covers the traditional ritual use in the tribal setting.
One of the points in that documentary was that the ritual is performed only once on any tribal member, and allows the maturation into adulthood. The ritual is mind blowing, involving the whole tribe in role and game play as the tripper emerges from seclusion with the shaman to whom he has revealed his secret shame.
Then the tribe do a cross rave party/psychodrama session to delight the subject back into connectedness.
It's deep, and beautiful.

 

[Riverwolf]

There is an excellent documentary in the "Tribe" series which covers the traditional ritual use in the tribal setting.
One of the points in that documentary was that the ritual is performed only once on any tribal member, and allows the maturation into adulthood. The ritual is mind blowing, involving the whole tribe in role and game play as the tripper emerges from seclusion with the shaman to whom he has revealed his secret shame.
Then the tribe do a cross rave party/psychodrama session to delight the subject back into connectedness.
It's deep, and beautiful.

Context really is everything.

 

[Papoon]

Context really is everything.

Yep

 

[Jumi]

Last year I had a mild visual hallucination lasting for some minutes. Knew that it didn't exist in reality, but it was highly disturbing to say the least. I feel for anyone having to deal with those for longer periods of time. As for the reason it triggered: high stress, little sleep, long hours of staring at data sets that should have been automated due to how repetitive it was to do manually. It was the body's signal to rest and so I did...

As for visions, those in my experience occur with some amount of control in it. The triggers are highly different or even planned and you can stop them with mostly minimal effort.

 

[Riverwolf]

In case anyone's curious for an example of what I mean by "vision", here's one I had a few months ago, copied from my Heathenry blog (and so is a bit... storified, for lack of a better term):

...I was reading about Þórr[Thor], and came upon passages about His legendary rage near statements that he was regarded as “the principal adversary of Christ”. I read that a devotee of Þórr[Thor] had told a missionary that the Son of Earth had challeneged Christ to a dual. That’s when I had a “vision” of sorts.

I saw Thunder standing across from Christ in a field of grass. Before long, Redbeard swung His Hammer at the self-proclaimed Son of Man with great force, but the mighty Masher merely passed right through while the God from Gallilee stood there, unmoving and expressionless. Thunder swung again, and many times after, each time harder, and each time a growing fury, yet each time with the same effect.

Then the Son of Earth’s rage reached a new height, His beard fanned flames and His eyes blue with bolts, and He struck the ground with such force that all the land erupted and Heaven grew dark and red. Christ then lifted his hand, his first movement this whole time, and all was reverted back to the way it was. Thunder struck the ground again, and Christ healed it again. With no growth of passion, the two Gods went back and forth like this for a long time.

Then, as Thunder struck and destroyed Heaven and Earth one final time, for the first time Christ smiled. Then, I saw his form change. His small beard fell away, brown hair changed to gold, and strange white robe gave way to familiar golden-green dress. Christ was not Christ; Frith, whom the Northmen called Síf, Thunder’s Most Beloved and Mother of Barleycorn, now stood before the Son of Earth with a smile as warm as freshly cooked bread.

Once again the land was healed, and a vast field of golden wheat rose around Thunder. He fell to the ground, all his fury burned away, and smiled as the golden stalks softly embraced him. Frith quietly giggled, and I realized that it really had been Her all along, teasing Her Beloved as only the Daughter of Fire could.​

And as I explained earlier in this thread, none of this manifested in the physical world or overtook any of my senses. It was akin to a dream in that I couldn't really control where it went like I can with daydreams, yet I was awake (if pretty tired). Heck, the vision started while I was sitting at a table, and I made my way to my couch while it was still going on.

 

[Sapiens]

Just watch 'Paranormal Lockdown' at 11PM tonight!

Sorry, television does not a citation make. Besides, I neither watch TV nor do I stay up that late..

 

[George-ananda]

Sorry, television does not a citation make. Besides, I neither watch TV nor do I stay up that late..

But on a serious note, I wonder if your worldview is self-limited. At this stage of science we still have to listen to the many and varied types of human experiences and consider (not blindly accept or blindly dismiss) them. Science can be guilty of being too sure of itself.