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whats the difference between iskcon and gaudiya vaishnavism

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

The point is well discussed/responded here:
Why do Indian married women keep palloo of saree or odhani or chunari to hide their face entirely or partially? - Yahoo! Answers India
How the custom or habit of covering the head with palloo or odhani came about has a complex history to it though not every historian share the root.
Historically, head coverings can be found in many cultures throughout the world, including the West. The first records we have of women who wore head coverings are from 13th century BC Assyria. These first instances of head coverings were markers of social standing.

In fact, purdah originated in the culture of Islam and is an alien phenomenon to Hindu women. Sushila Singh, a professor at Banaras Hindu University in Varanasi explains, "“In the mythic past of Hindu culture, all women figures as exemplified by different goddess statues bare-headed and their faces are never veiled." However, with the Muslim invasions came the purdah system for Hindu women to practice. Although this system was established for the protection of Hindu women just as it protects Islamic women, this purdah took a different form. “Veiling one’s face, or 'ghoonghat,' came into practice,” she points out.

Coralynn Davis, the Assistant Professor of Women’s Studies at Bucknell University, is an expert on the cultural group known as the Maithils. Maithili women, when venturing out, must cover their heads with their saris (pulling over the palloos). Davis explains: “researchers often interpret the reason for this practice to be that it assures husbands and their families that the children born to these women are in fact the children of her husband.” However, Maithil people consider this practice in relation to family honor. “Families in which the in-married wives strictly practice purdah are said to be good families and therefore be in good standing in their communities,” points out Davis.

Scholar Leigh Minturn in her book 'Sita’s Daughters: Coming Out of Purdah' writes that “the dichotomy between virtuous and immoral women is reflected in the behavior of Indian men towards any woman not observing traditional customs. Because women are expected to be cloistered and veiled, and to travel only in the company of a male relative, men have no norms of restraint for women who do not observe these customs…" In due course, covering the head became culturally ingrained though rooted in the double-standard!

For other historians the roots of covering head dates back to the vedic ettiquette that women should cover their bodies including the head especially when in public. More symbolic of modesty. Modern feminists would call that a symbol of servility imposed by the then patriarchs of vedic society.

Indian women must experience a range of expectations regarding appropriate behavior, appropriate dress, and appropriate roles as daughters, wives, mothers, mothers-in-law, daughters-in-law, etc. All these behavioral norms transmorphed into cultural habits under the patriarchic system of governance of the society though in places like Rajasthan odhanis covering the head serves a couple of additional purposes: to ward of heat on the head and sand particles off the face/eyes. But Rajasthani women themselves consider drawing the odhani over the head as a Rajasthani cultural honor.

But, practically nowadays, the cultural practice persists for a number of reasons. If a woman is not aware of the changes taking place around her, she would continue to stick to the cultural habit. But then in cities women do pull over their palloos more out of a cultural ingraining as a reflection of womanly modesty and for religious/social reasons too.

Again, feminists venture to argue that covering head also adds grace and sensuality to the woman nowadays even if there is no patriarchal pressure to do so in many parts of India. Lastly, but not leastly, women by choice pull their palloos/odhanis or dupattas over their head to also exhibit the beautiful motifs drawn on them which obviously reveals the intricate skills of the craftsperson.

Love & rgds
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
For womens' clothing in India: I read that in Kerala a dhoti is (or was) considered full clothing for women.
The even let their breasts bare.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Marble,

Our dear friend Venugopla had mentioned in one post here on some old thread about a ashram in Kerala where the inmates both males and females live without any clothes on so as to be conscious of their own desires. If they do get any they can satisfy it with mutual consent. Guess it should be in the open too.

Besides fashion too is leaning towards least cloth for covering.
Am sure someday humans will go full circle.
Love & rgds
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear mocharadha ,

what does headcovering symbolize that makes it humble. why dont men do this

a woman covers her head and a man shaves of his hair all but a small sikha , a lock left at the back .
both being a sign of surrender to god and a mark of devotion , as the hair is often a vanity in both men and woman .
traditionaly the mans sikha is tied and the womans hair left un cut and braided , this is a mark of dicipline and clenliness .
it is prehaps less simbolic and more a tradition .

more simbolic is the tilak markings worn on the forhead .each hindu tradition has its own markings the vaisnava tilak forms a long u in the center if the forhead often but not allways with a leaf at the bottom this u marking is concidered the footprint of god
, woman wear a red dot in the center when maried and often red in the central parting of the hair , there are allso many occasions when extra clay markings are applied allso black soot from a yajna (fire sacrifice ceremony) , all markings are concidered an honour to wear and trancend caste , but all markings denote ones position in life as a devotee of god .

thus I said humility , simply as all habits such as covering the hair , marking ones forhead with tilak and the wearing of traditional clothing , is an adherance to tradition and a mark of respect for that tradition as apposed to an adherance to fasion or personal vanity .
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
Friend Marble,

Our dear friend Venugopla had mentioned in one post here on some old thread about a ashram in Kerala where the inmates both males and females live without any clothes on so as to be conscious of their own desires. If they do get any they can satisfy it with mutual consent. Guess it should be in the open too.

Besides fashion too is leaning towards least cloth for covering.
Am sure someday humans will go full circle.
Love & rgds
What is the name of this ashram? :cover:
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear iridescence ,



In my research on it I've come across some troubling things, coupled
with a falling-out I had very recently with an ISKCON member on
another social network. Long story short, my unorthodox beliefs --
and the reasons I gave for my lack of admiration for ISKCON
(especially the controversial views of its founder, my criticism of which
was deemed "unforgivable") -- got me chewed out and unfriended.
:shrug:


.

I would respectfully like to raise a few questions here not just with your fellings about Iscon , but with any such fellings which lead to criticism of any school .

firstly I will state clearly for the record that I am neither side of the fence .

I am not defending iscon or any bad behavior that might have happened , any abbuse of position where ever it happens is abhorrent !!!

but what I am questioning is why iscon are taking such a bashing , when many of its members are simply sincere devotees who hold srila prabhupada in very high regard on the grounds that he in his one single lifetime , accheived so much that has been of benifit to so many people .

many iscon devotees are feircely proud of prabhupada , as many are of the founders of their traditions or the person who has made that tradition accessable . this is only natural .

I would simply ask anyone , if you do not admire something then simply leave it out , walk on , find your tradition one where you feel comfortable .
for crying out loud have some personal dignity and stop behaving like spoilt children !

I have seen this type of critical behavior so many times before , and it is so distructive and simply does no credit to any tradition or the entire subject of faith or religion .

one has to ask ....why there such a propencity in the modern mind to tear everything to shreads ? ... to think that one knows better or could do better is foolish ignorance .

it is ahamkara on a grand scale ,

oh look at me I am so clever I can criticise others ! :no:

the truely clever realise the futility of such actions and turn their criticism upon them selves :yes:

one should find and destroy all the disturbing things in ones own nature before one even thinks of criticising others .

without doubt there are inconsistancies to be found everywhere in this imperfect world , after all this is kali yuga ..... if you want perfection set your sights on goloka , do your sadhana , and get the hell out of here !

I think we all need to examine who the * I * is , that is doing all this thinking , or holding all these veiws ?

No * I * No opinions ....:D.....No arguements ....:D .....No fault finding ....:D
and less likelihood of getting chewed up...:D
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

Agree with friend ratikala also would add that found it easier to find the real GURU internally [meditation] than look for it externally [mind].
Well it is also karma but why not make the karma HERE-NOW! instead of falling back on the mind who will say what is the hurry. Time is eternal and being in maya is so heavenly etc. But friend it is only because we have not known IT; once we know THAT we are It's parts then the mind is size *ZERO* [perfect] :cover:
Take care or the marketing gurus err the guru-marketing business is flourishing everyday and expanding due to high demand with supply near *zero*. Well its LIFE! :yes::yes:
What is the way? :confused:
Meditate and slowly the consciousness within will guide and when the time comes, guru too will come; even physically. Personally such calling is yet to come. But there is no hurry now as have my personal guide or rather since am IT's part it has to take care of itself; if It wishes to.

Love & rgds
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Reminds me of the story of the two monks who, on a cross India walk, encountered the high flowing river. A small female child couldn't cross, so one of the monks pick-a-backed her across. A week later his brother monk went ballistic over the order's rule about not touching females: "I can't believe you did that back there, What were you thinking? You have broken your vow."

To which his brother responded. "You carried her for a week, I carried her for 20 metres."

Sometimes its best to know when to fold 'em. Besides, the Karma the judge will handle it.
 

Cassandra

Active Member

In my research on it I've come across some troubling things, coupled
with a falling-out I had very recently with an ISKCON member on
another social network. Long story short, my unorthodox beliefs --
and the reasons I gave for my lack of admiration for ISKCON
(especially the controversial views of its founder, my criticism of which
was deemed "unforgivable") -- got me chewed out and unfriended.
:shrug:


I agree with you and i have nothing in common with the moral relativism that people spread here, that i see as the opposite of the path of Dharma. It should be clear that organizations like Iskcon that are actively proselyting are not part op Sanatan Dharm. Proselyting is a first order offense against it. It is done to acquire wealth and power for their leaders and is a 100% against the idea of self-enlightenment.

I often found Iskcon members to be arrogant. That it is full of scandals is only to be expected. Saying that many good people are part of it, is like saying so many good Germans were part of the Nazi movement. This is true, all ideological mass movements are able to hold a great number of good people hostage under the flag of ideals.

It is not that mass movements have bad people in it too, since that is to be expected. But it is that some movements are run by bad people, that makes the essential difference. A movement run by evil people no matter how many good people are in it, is an instrument for evil. An organization run by good people, no matter how many evil people are in it is an instrument for Good.

We also have to understand that people actively proselyting commonly operate under false identities, either to support their movement, or attack people criticizing their movement, or to get near to the victims the are preying on. Proselyting is always a "the means justify the end" activity, that involves deceit. This is pure adharmic as Dharma is as much based on pure means as pure goals.

Proselyting movements calling themselves Sanatan Dharm are a bigger problem than outside movements proselyting because they destroy a religion from within. They confuse good people to follow inferior paths that are run by people of low consciousness

Is it a surprise that these people advocate that all path run to the same end? Of course not, this is simply an argument to get acceptation for adharmic paths. A pure mind is discriminative. It can differentiate between Dharma and adharma, It is silly to be discriminative about the food you eat, but not be discriminative about organizations proselyting run by demonic minded leaders.

We need to understand that evil may be ignorant in the sense it does not understand it is only creating its own destruction, but at the same time it can be extremely intelligent in doing this and nothing gives it more pleasure than to bring down good people. Therefor our first duty is to keep Sanatan Dharm clean. If we allow Sanatan Dharm to become corrupt under flag of indiscriminate tolerance we are simply promoting adharm.

How do we recognize the Demonic minds? It is easy, lying, creating confusion, smooth talking, covert operations, sexual abuse are always part of it. The Demonic mind though superior in spreading illusions through words and outer display, is still always betrayed by her actions since it can not control her low nature. Where ever you find sex scandals in the leadership you know these organizations either became infested or are front for more sinister practices.

Sadly enough all kind of idealistic organizations are set up by extremely evil people because they are the perfect cover to hide their evil doings. They are above approach. These organizations have high ideals and attract noble people working for them. But these organization have very different purposes. The good they do does not justify their existence as they drain resources that should have gone to noble organizations. And organizations that initiate unfit people in powerful spiritual techniques are not a blessing but a real danger to society.

That is why we should not turn a blind eye to organizations that clearly show the signs of corruption and we should look critically at people that defend them. These people are ignorant at the least.
 
Last edited:

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I agree with you and i have nothing in common with the moral relativism that people spread here, that i see as the opposite of the path of Dharma. It should be clear that organizations like Iskcon that are actively proselyting are not part op Sanatan Dharm.

I've seen ISKCON members outside other temples within the Hinduism fold trying to sell the books. The devotees entering the temple (Murugan ... South India) looked happy and serene, whilst the ISKCON guys looked frustrated at the lack of sales. Go figure!
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Friend Marble,

Our dear friend Venugopla had mentioned in one post here on some old thread about a ashram in Kerala where the inmates both males and females live without any clothes on so as to be conscious of their own desires. If they do get any they can satisfy it with mutual consent. Guess it should be in the open too.

Besides fashion too is leaning towards least cloth for covering.
Am sure someday humans will go full circle.
Love & rgds

The sari blouse is a fairly recent invention, in response to the British. ... Something like what happened in Polynesia. Except for the early days of National Geographic.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Vinayaka,

The sari blouse is a fairly recent invention, in response to the British. ... Something like what happened in Polynesia. Except for the early days of National Geographic.

Well, well, clothes are mind matters. consciousness is naked!

Love & rgds
 
dear iridescence ,




I would respectfully like to raise a few questions here not just with your fellings about Iscon , but with any such fellings which lead to criticism of any school .

firstly I will state clearly for the record that I am neither side of the fence .

I am not defending iscon or any bad behavior that might have happened , any abbuse of position where ever it happens is abhorrent !!!

but what I am questioning is why iscon are taking such a bashing , when many of its members are simply sincere devotees who hold srila prabhupada in very high regard on the grounds that he in his one single lifetime , accheived so much that has been of benifit to so many people .

many iscon devotees are feircely proud of prabhupada , as many are of the founders of their traditions or the person who has made that tradition accessable . this is only natural .

I would simply ask anyone , if you do not admire something then simply leave it out , walk on , find your tradition one where you feel comfortable .
for crying out loud have some personal dignity and stop behaving like spoilt children !

I have seen this type of critical behavior so many times before , and it is so distructive and simply does no credit to any tradition or the entire subject of faith or religion .

one has to ask ....why there such a propencity in the modern mind to tear everything to shreads ? ... to think that one knows better or could do better is foolish ignorance .

it is ahamkara on a grand scale ,

oh look at me I am so clever I can criticise others ! :no:

the truely clever realise the futility of such actions and turn their criticism upon them selves :yes:

one should find and destroy all the disturbing things in ones own nature before one even thinks of criticising others .

without doubt there are inconsistancies to be found everywhere in this imperfect world , after all this is kali yuga ..... if you want perfection set your sights on goloka , do your sadhana , and get the hell out of here !

I think we all need to examine who the * I * is , that is doing all this thinking , or holding all these veiws ?

No * I * No opinions ....:D.....No arguements ....:D .....No fault finding ....:D
and less likelihood of getting chewed up...:D
Since you don't have the full story as to what went down, I
can understand why you would say the above. Suffice it to
say that I was being asked to turn a blind eye to the
suffering of many under that system in order to submit
myself to that system, and instead of just complying, I
explained why that was a no-can-do, and was verbally
attacked for it.

Any system that asks me to look the other way when people
are abused will be called on it, either by me or someone
else.

Hopefully my having shared that doesn't result in further
abuses being dished out on me here too, though that only
will serve to confirm my convictions in this area. :(

.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
My take is if you're right in the middle of it, then its your dharma to act. But if you're in a place where there isn't much you can do, then best to keep your mind away. You can feed or hug your own starving child, or even a neighbour's but you can't feed a starving child in Bolivia as easily.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
One researcher came to the conclusion that is was easier to create a list of children not abused that of children abused. The list of children of not abused was much shorter. So what are we to look away from?

A. YEARS OF PRIMARY ABUSE 1. The sexual, physical and emotional abuse of the minor children occurred primarily between the years 1972 and 1990, although abuse continued after 1990 and, it is believed, continues to the present. The sexual, physical and emotional abuse of minor children was inflicted on children from as young as 3 years of age to 18 years of age, and included both boys and girls.
2. The abuse to which the ISKCON children were subjected was inflicted on some children for several years. It included a pattern and practice of sexual abuse of both boys and girls, physical abuse, and emotional abuse. In many instances, the abuse could be accurately described as torture of children. Not all of the following described acts of child abuse were carried out on every child, but every plaintiff in this case was subject to multiple forms of child abuse over extended periods of time, some for years. Some examples of the types of abuse and neglect to which the children, ranging in age from 3 years to 18 years, were subjected include but are not limited to:
B. ABUSE INFLICTED
3. Sexual abuse including rape, oral sex, intercourse with children, sexual fondling of children, and masturbation with children.
4. Physical beatings of children with boards, branches, clubs, and poles.
5. Physical beatings by adult teachers and school leaders with fists to the head and stomach.
6. Kicking the children into submission.
7. Children were in some instances made to walk great distances in bitter cold, including snow and rain, without jackets, coats, or shoes.
8. Children were often forced to sleep on cold floors and in unheated rooms.
9. Children were frequently deprived entirely of medical care or provided such inadequate medical care as to suffer long-term and, in some instances, permanent injury. The medical conditions for which children were not treated included malaria, hepatitis, yellow fever, teeth being knocked out, broken facial bones, and broken bones in their hands, often inflicted as they attempted to shield themselves from beatings.
10. Children were sometimes kept in filthy conditions. In at least one instance, a local group utilized what had recently been a cattle or horse barn for a nursery.
11. In almost every school the children were kept in severely overcrowded conditions, often forced to sleep shoulder to shoulder on the floor or in small rooms in three-high bunks with 10 or 12 children to each tiny room.
12. The children were physically abused by being awakened every day in the early morning hours (generally at 4:00 a.m.) and subjected to a cold shower, after which they were taken, without any breakfast, to a daily religious service. At some schools, the children were forced to walk great distances in the dark to attend the service, and often in cold or rainy conditions, clothed only in their thin gown-like "dohti."
13. The children were not provided bathroom tissue, but instead were expected to wipe themselves with their fingers, after which they would dip their fingers into a bowl of water.
14. As punishment for not cleaning themselves thoroughly, children were scrubbed with steel wool until their skin was raw and sometimes bleeding.
15. Children were abused when they were forced to sleep on their wet blankets or in tubs as punishment if they wet their bedding.
16. Some children were forced to wear their soiled underclothes on their heads for long periods of time because they had wet themselves.
17. Children were often forced to go without food entirely, either because there was none, or as punishment. When food was provided, it was always inadequate for a growing child's diet.
18. The inadequate food that was provided was often prepared in unsanitary conditions, was of very poor quality and so unpleasant that even hungry children frequently could not eat it. In at least one school, the children learned as a matter of routine to remove insects from their food before eating it.
19. Each child was expected to eat what they were provided. If they did not do so, their served portion was kept on their plates until the next meal when it was served again. This process often continued until the cold food -- even mouldy and insect-infested -- was swallowed.
20. In some schools, children were forced to lick up their vomit from any foul food they may have thrown up.
21. At New Vrindavan, three young boys, about six or seven years of age, who worked in the kitchen, took some food to their hungry friends. They were caught and punished by being gagged, having bags placed over their heads, and being put in a small room for several days with only a bucket for their waste and no food or water. One of the same boys was later slammed by a teacher into a marble wall, resulting in a loss of some teeth and fractured facial bones.
22. Children were controlled by various threats to hurt or kill them and by punishments. Young children, strictly limited to a vegetarian diet, were continually terrorized when told that non-Krishnas were meat-eaters, that they ate each other, and that the children, if given to or taken by the meat-eaters, would themselves be eaten.
23. Children often saw rats in their rooms and schools. Some children (such as those at the school in Dallas) were told the rats lived in a particular old closet, and the child would be, and often was, placed in the closet if they didn't do as told.
24. One form of punishment included forcing little children to stand on a crate for long periods of time in a darkened closet "so the rats would not eat them."
25. Very young children were in fact placed in those dark and locked closets and left afraid and crying for hours at a time. They were locked overnight in dark cellars with dirt floors. One young child was made to sleep alone in the loft of a cold barn for many nights.
26. Sometimes the children were sent by their superiors to massage and bathe the religious gurus and then drink their now "blessed bath water."
27. In some cases, children were stuffed into trash barrels for periods of two to three days, with the lid on, as punishment for relatively trivial "sins."
28. Children were almost universally told that if they disclosed their condition or complained to their parents or others, they would be severely punished. When complaints were made, the children were publicly and often severely beaten or subjected to other forms of punishment.
29. Girls, as young as 12 or 13 years, were frequently "given" or "promised" to an older male in the movement. Although their marriages were generally not sexually consummated until the child was at least 16 or 17 years old, the little girls were terrorized by the threats, and often reality, of being given away by their leaders to become engaged to marry "strange old men."
30. Children were often forced to lie awake in their beds or sleeping bags and listen as their little friends were sexually molested by teachers and other leaders.
31. The children were emotionally abused by subjecting them to near-total parental and societal isolation. In an effort to totally control their minds, the children were, in most cases, separated and isolated from their parents and were not allowed to have regular contact with their parents. Personal visits, correspondence, and telephone calls were either forbidden or discouraged. Gifts, particularly of food, were intercepted. For example, one young boy felt abandoned by his parents, and had no contact with his family for more than a year. He later learned the one small package of cookies sent by his mother was intercepted and kept from him.
32. Children were frequently moved to different schools in different states without the consent (or, sometimes, knowledge) of parents. Some children were hidden from parents. Some boys were shipped out of the country to ISKCON schools in India. In at least some cases, after the parents discovered their child's whereabouts and made arrangements for them to come home, their plane tickets were intercepted, and torn up in front of the children. Then, these children were punished for their parents' attempt to bring them home.
33. Even though the children were given by their parents to ISKCON to educate, except for the reading of their "vedic scriptures," the children received little or no education.
34. Because of near-total isolation from the outside world and lack of education, the children who remained within the ISKCON schools for extended periods of time were totally unequipped to enter outside society. They have experienced extreme difficulty in earning a living, entering and maintaining relationships, including marriage, and in adapting to the laws and regulations of society. Many are in need of extended psychological and/or vocational training, rehabilitation, and medical care.

These children did not volunteer to become sannyasins, they were simply exposed to the most cruel treatment imaginable. Maltreatment of children especially beating is a well established practice by pedophiles to make children both willing and to make them keep their mouth shut about it.

It is no coincidence that extreme religious movements like Iskcon and Evangelicals, but also the Catholic church are record holders in child abuse. The behavior of these organizations is very similar, Abusers when caught are simply transferred to other locations where they can continue their practices.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
What would Rama do, when confronted with such demonic concentration...?
Lets see ...
how did he react to the kidnapping of one chaste woman?

Okay
So how would he react to the abuse of thousands of innocent children and young men and women?

One of those Brahma missiles would do just fine
 
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