whats the difference between iskcon and gaudiya vaishnavism

[ratikala]

dear cassandra ,

Pedosexual predators will love to agree with you
Lets look the other way
They love the freedom you provide them

I dont remember saying look the other way , I remember agreeing that one should act upon something if you are there , or as vinayaka said in the middle of it !!!

I am not in the middle of what you say is happening in iscon , therefore I canot act , If I was anywhere were any kind of abbuse was happening I would most certainly act .

But then again you are not exactly impartial are you?

I think you have neglected to read my previous post !

I am not defending iscon or any bad behavior that might have happened , any abbuse of position where ever it happens is abhorrent !!!

if you wish to discuss abbuse , open a thread about , but frankly discussing it dosent stop it happening !

I can fully understand that this kind of thing makes you angry , but attacking strangers on a religious forum is not exactly the best way to solve the problem .

 

[ratikala]

dear cassandra ,

you fail to say where this information comes from ?

I think it might be advisable in future to give a source for quotes .

 

[Astravalon]

I googled the text. One source is here:

"34 charges of Iskcon child abuse"​

I agree that one can't be at all places at all times to step in and stop
bad things from happening (this is why I don't watch the news
much, because I see little point in filling my head with all the things
I can do nothing to alleviate).

Still, raising awareness of these things is helpful when it comes to
abuses within any religious institution that advertises itself as the
paragon of all truth and virtue (and there's more than just one out
there that does this). People look to them for guidance and as
models of proper belief/behavior/etc., so speaking up and speaking
out can literally be a life-saver. And now, with the help of the
internet, the alert can be spread that much more quickly before
someone else wanders into what can only be described as a
nightmare.



.

 

[Cassandra]

dear cassandra ,

I dont remember saying look the other way , I remember agreeing that one should act upon something if you are there , or as vinayaka said in the middle of it !!!

I am not in the middle of what you say is happening in iscon , therefore I canot act , If I was anywhere were any kind of abbuse was happening I would most certainly act

I think you have neglected to read my previous post !

if you wish to discuss abbuse , open a thread about , but frankly discussing it dosent stop it happening !

I can fully understand that this kind of thing makes you angry , but attacking strangers on a religious forum is not exactly the best way to solve the problem .

yes I read your claim not choose sides, just before you start defending Iskcon and attacking people who criticize Iskcon

I would simply ask anyone , if you do not admire something then simply leave it out , walk on , find your tradition one where you feel comfortable .
for crying out loud have some personal dignity and stop behaving like spoilt children !

I have seen this type of critical behavior so many times before , and it is so distructive and simply does no credit to any tradition or the entire subject of faith or religion .

one has to ask ....why there such a propencity in the modern mind to tear everything to shreads ? ... to think that one knows better or could do better is foolish ignorance .

it is ahamkara on a grand scale ,

oh look at me I am so clever I can criticise others ! :no:

the truely clever realise the futility of such actions and turn their criticism upon them selves :yes:

one should find and destroy all the disturbing things in ones own nature before one even thinks of criticising others .

without doubt there are inconsistancies to be found everywhere in this imperfect world , after all this is kali yuga ..... if you want perfection set your sights on goloka , do your sadhana , and get the hell out of here !

ahamkara? this is Kali yuga, so it is okay? stop behaving like spoiled children? Destructive activity? We can not criticize systematic child abuse unless we are free of sin?

Really ratikala? To me this looks pretty much like advocating the cover up Iskcon leaders are constantly doing. Of course pedosexual predators do not like outsiders to meddle in. I can completely understand their feelings, ratikala. They want to have fun with the kids and the women and no interference from small minded outsiders.

My problem lies here ratikala, they are making a lots of innocent victims that are not in a position to oppose them, because they brainwash them and because they created a totally dictatorial system which only leaves room for adoration of leaders. We saw the same love and devotion in North Korea for the great leader Kim Il sung, look here how grief struck his people were by his death. Surely that is convincing real emotion, real devotion, real worship? That gives you an idea of the power of the techniques these movements use. And Kim Il sung learned from the best, he and his parents were Evangelicals.

So I have to disagree with you, I do not think it is such a good idea to let these predators continue their practices. I agree with you and zenzero we should not hate them, but that should not prevent us from helping to stop these low-lives. I do not think there is anything lower than child abuse. You can not sink deeper than that. And organizations that do it systematically, should not be painted as honorable societies that are above reproach of outside criticism.

But I know my feelings are not shared by pedophiles who often have very warped ideas about religion and actually see their "love" and adoration for the innocent child as a spiritual highlights. Also they refuse to admit they harm the child even if you put a gun to their head, since the are totally convinced of their "love". These people are more than a little sick in the mind, they have perverted natures that are incurable. Letting them do their thing and show respect for their "religion" is not such a good idea ratikala. Actually it is a very bad idea.

I think we should not leave any doubt to which movements are pure and upholding Dharma and the ones that obviously infested with unhealthy minds and practices. Now some people may have a problem with seeing the difference, but if your value system is not impaired it should not be too difficult. But then of course you must not look the other way as you advise. Then you see nothing.

In stead ratikala study some enlightening videos on you tube or google on "Iskcon child abuse"

happy reading

 

[Astravalon]

Something just occurred to me... Might the level of outrage against
these abuses from within the ranks of ISKCON and/or it's
sympathizers be higher if the victims had been cows instead of
people?

Just a thought.

.

 

[Cassandra]

I googled the text. One source is here:

"34 charges of Iskcon child abuse"​

I agree that one can't be at all places at all times to step in and stop
bad things from happening (this is why I don't watch the news
much, because I see little point in filling my head with all the things
I can do nothing to alleviate).

Still, raising awareness of these things is helpful when it comes to
abuses within any religious institution that advertises itself as the
paragon of all truth and virtue (and there's more than just one out
there that does this). People look to them for guidance and as
models of proper belief/behavior/etc., so speaking up and speaking
out can literally be a life-saver. And now, with the help of the
internet, the alert can be spread that much more quickly before
someone else wanders into what can only be described as a
nightmare..

Indeed these things happen in any religion, but there is a clear pattern in which parts of religions these practices flourish. It is the movements in which a system is created in which people are made totally powerless and subservient, and especially in movements in which people are subjected to mass meetings in which emotions are artificially brought to extreme levels, that are translated as spirituality, creating strong group alliance. Often these movements have godlike leaders whose words can not be questioned without serious consequences. Another consistent pattern is very harsh treatment of children involving systematic violence. Especially free spirited children have to undergo extreme abuse to make them subservient.

People are so thoroughly conditioned that even if they leave the movement it can take decades for them to actually realize that they were abused and to what extend they were abused, because in the movement they have no other reference system and even these severe conditions become normality. Especially if you are young the programming goes very deep. Many people will even never realize it, defend it and stay loyal to the group. The generation of Germans that supported Adolf Hitler never repented, they simply died out, and were replaced by a generation that was better educated. Only very few would admit they were led astray and only after decades.

That is also why much abuse remains unpunished, even if people get to the point of charging their offenders, the crimes are often expired. Then they have to fight a system that will try to drag on the case for years. In the US many cases were dismissed for the simple reason that the accused were no longer in the state. So even if we have an abundance of cases against Iskcon officials this is only the tip of the iceberg.

But I say this warrants enough to warn people against this movement, wouldn't you agree? Let us not put the warm cloak of Sanatan Dharm around it. This is unjustified. It abuses ideas and traditions of the Vaishnavism to create the illusion of being a legitimate spiritual movement, but they are not. Suggesting otherwise will only harm Sanatan Dharma, especially since they so prominently manifest themselves as THE Hindu movement building large temples around the world. These aggressive movements are in fact an important reason for young people to turn their back on religion altogether.

 

[Astravalon]

Indeed these things happen in any religion, but there is a clear pattern in which parts of religions these practices flourish. It is the movements in which a system is created in which people are made totally powerless and subservient, and especially in movements in which people are subjected to mass meetings in which emotions are artificially brought to extreme levels, that are translated as spirituality, creating strong group alliance. Often these movements have godlike leaders whose words can not be questioned without serious consequences. Another consistent pattern is very harsh treatment of children involving systematic violence. Especially free spirited children have to undergo extreme abuse to make them subservient.

People are so thoroughly conditioned that even if they leave the movement it can take decades for them to actually realize that they were abused and to what extend they were abused, because in the movement they have no other reference system and even these severe conditions become normality. Especially if you are young the programming goes very deep. Many people will even never realize it, defend it and stay loyal to the group. The generation of Germans that supported Adolf Hitler never repented, they simply died out, and were replaced by a generation that was better educated.

Very true -- and the groupthink is indeed a powerful tool for keeping
people under control.

This reminds me of another article I came across awhile ago written
by someone who was a member of ISKCON for 17 years:

On Leaving ISKCON
by Steven J. Gelberg, 1991
​

.

 

[Marble]

Excuse me :namaste , but this thread was about the differences between the ancient Gaudiya Vaishnav tradition and the modern ISKCON organization.
For dicussing child abuse in religious organizations, it might be better to create another thread.

 

[Cassandra]

Excuse me :namaste , but this thread was about the differences between the ancient Gaudiya Vaishnav tradition and the modern ISKCON organization.
For dicussing child abuse in religious organizations, it might be better to create another thread.

Well we are discussing that. I am creating the argument why Iskcon is not a legitimate Vaishnavism, but a dangerous cult that taps into Vaishnavism to create the illusion it is the same. We should have a clear understanding why it is not and why outward appearances are deceitful.

 

[Cassandra]

Something just occurred to me... Might the level of outrage against
these abuses from within the ranks of ISKCON and/or it's
sympathizers be higher if the victims had been cows instead of
people?

Just a thought.

Yes it would be. Because people easily reason that the people in a movement have a free choice. People do not realize how people are systematically indoctrinated to a point they stop even asking questions. That is why especially young Germans happily died for Adolf Hitler with not so much as a doubt in their mind, they were indoctrinated from young age. But even almost all scientists were also willing servants. Rational intelligence has nothing to do with it. Only people with a strong sense of values resist.

We underestimate the power of these systems. They purposely concentrate on breaking resistance of the strong minded and then the rest follow like sheep. Research shows that 70% of the people will follow authority in anything if they are subjected to low pressure. In experiments 70% was even willing to kill strangers if commanded, and those people were not even conditioned for the experiment.

But when a cow is hurt, people feel natural pity and strong emotion for the poor animal because it can not defend it self. That causes an outrage.

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

dear cassandra ,

you fail to say where this information comes from ?

I think it might be advisable in future to give a source for quotes .

Could you answer this question? Please anwser this without writting and repeating your "empty" claims.

Are you a man Cassandra?

Something must be done about the poor children before they are 35 years old.

Will you help Cassandra? How do you plan on helping those poor kids?

Can you reveal to us what you are planning? What is the plan?

How do I assist you in exorcising your deeply held complaints?

Do you have any info that is less then 20 years old?

Can you site the organization that is spearheading the movement to SAVE THE HAHRAY KRISHNA VAISHNAV CHILDREN??????????????????????

God let us combine our collective intelligence to SAVE THE International Society of Krishna Conscious VAISHNAV CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hare Krishna,
Mohini shakti devi dasi

 

[zenzero]

Friend mohini,

Welcome to RF!
Best Wishes!

Love & rgds

are you an ISKON member or just a follow of the *vaishnava* tradition?

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Two things:

One -

bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karanapatava
isvarera vakye nahi dosa ei saba​

bhrama -- mistake; pramada -- illusion; vipralipsa -- cheating purposes; karana-apatava -- inefficiency of the material senses; isvarera -- of the Lord; vakye -- in the speech; nahi -- there is not; dosa -- fault; ei saba -- all this.

The material defects of mistakes, illusions, cheating and sensory inefficiency do not exist in the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Two -

Supreme Lord says in Bhagvad Gita:

api cet su-durācāro
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
samyag vyavasito hi saḥ​

api — even; cet — if; su-durācāraḥ — one committing the most abominable actions; bhajate — is engaged in devotional service; mām — unto Me; ananya-bhāk — without deviation; sādhuḥ — a saint; eva — certainly; saḥ — he; mantavyaḥ — is to be considered; samyak — completely; vyavasitaḥ — situated in determination; hi — certainly; saḥ — he.

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

Two again -

In the Nṛsiḿha Purāṇa the following statement is given:

bhagavati ca harāv ananya-cetā
bhṛśa-malino 'pi virājate manuṣyaḥ
na hi śaśa-kaluṣa-cchabiḥ kadācit
timira-parābhavatām upaiti candraḥ​

The meaning is that even if one fully engaged in the devotional service of the Lord is sometimes found engaged in abominable activities, these activities should be considered to be like the spots that resemble the mark of a rabbit on the moon. Such spots do not become an impediment to the diffusion of moonlight. Similarly, the accidental falldown of a devotee from the path of saintly character does not make him abominable.

And again -

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!
and
Let Him Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone​

 

[ratikala]

dear casandra ,

yes I read your claim not choose sides, just before you start defending Iskcon and attacking people who criticize Iskcon

I am not defending what happened in the past ,
I am simply questioning the logic in bringing up news which has allready been dealt with some years ago , and the guilty partys removed .


on the question of atacking ?
why do you feel that it is permissable for you yourself to criticise the entire of iscon on the strength of the actions of some of its members ?
whilst objecting to my questioning of your critical outlook ?

ahamkara? this is Kali yuga, so it is okay? stop behaving like spoiled children? Destructive activity? We can not criticize systematic child abuse unless we are free of sin?

Really ratikala? To me this looks pretty much like advocating the cover up Iskcon leaders are constantly doing. Of course pedosexual predators do not like outsiders to meddle in. I can completely understand their feelings, ratikala. They want to have fun with the kids and the women and no interference from small minded outsiders.

you are accusing the entire of iscon for the actions of a few ,
you are going on a personal crusade .... this is what I call ahamkara !
you are using this hidious abuse case to bring disscredit upon thousands of iscon devotees who were not implicated in any way .
your behavior is worse than childish , it is divisive !!!

you know full well that I am not condoning this behavior , yet you continue to accuse me siding with iscon and advocating a cover up .

up untill this point I have not taken any side , but simply tried to advocate a comonsence approach .

now I will take a side , I will take the side of the thousands and thousands of iscon devotees who are totaly inocent of any abuse and who are going about their business of devotion and who do not need to be criticised and classed as cult junkies .

My problem lies here ratikala, they are making a lots of innocent victims that are not in a position to oppose them, because they brainwash them and because they created a totally dictatorial system which only leaves room for adoration of leaders. We saw the same love and devotion in North Korea for the great leader Kim Il sung, look here
how grief struck his people were by his death. Surely that is convincing real emotion, real devotion, real worship? That gives you an idea of the power of the techniques these movements use. And Kim Il sung learned from the best, he and his parents were Evangelicals.

you continue to talk as if this abuse is still going on ?

is this abuse still going on ? and where do you gain this knowledge from?

now you wish to bring korea in to the equasion ?

So I have to disagree with you, I do not think it is such a good idea to let these predators continue their practices. I agree with you and zenzero we should not hate them, but that should not prevent us from helping to stop these low-lives. I do not think there is anything lower than child abuse. You can not sink deeper than that. And organizations that do it systematically, should not be painted as honorable societies that are above reproach of outside criticism.

for your criticism to be valid , it must be ballanced by an acknowledgement of that which is praise worthy .

how exactly are you going to stop something by criticism alone ????

But I know my feelings are not shared by pedophiles who often have very warped ideas about religion and actually see their "love" and adoration for the innocent child as a spiritual highlights. Also they refuse to admit they harm the child even if you put a gun to their head, since the are totally convinced of their "love". These people are more than a little sick in the mind, they have perverted natures that are incurable. Letting them do their thing and show respect for their "religion" is not such a good idea ratikala. Actually it is a very bad idea.

frankly I find this obbsession with child abuse equaly disturbing ,

I have freinds who work in social service roles who get up every day and deal with these disturbing issues , however they do not post details of it all over the place , nor do they get into discussions about it .
they dont talk they act .

I think we should not leave any doubt to which movements are pure and upholding Dharma and the ones that obviously infested with unhealthy minds and practices. Now some people may have a problem with seeing the difference, but if your value system is not impaired it should not be too difficult. But then of course you must not look the other way as you advise. Then you see nothing.

I do not advise looking the other way , I simply dont advocate dwelling on something which Is or has allready been delt with by the authoritys concerned .

In stead ratikala study some enlightening videos on you tube or google on "Iskcon child abuse"

happy reading

frankly I find your sarcasm disturbing ,

happy reading

to take any delight in such reading matter would be utterly perverse !!!!

 

[tumbleweed41]

MOD POST

This thread has been moved to Same Faith Debates.

Please keep in mind that although debate is now allowed, all other Rule 10 aspects are still in place.

Same faith members only, unless you are posting a respectful question.


​

 

[lalita]

Its normal when people become disgusted with a system to vent anger and keep pounding on one thing the way Cassandra is doing.
Being a non vegetarian person doesn 't mean one cannot make accurate observations. Although it may be riddled with negative obsessions. However, if you fix one problem, lets bet another will crop up in short time.