What's the matter with birth control?

[Trey of Diamonds]

Well, the Catholic church has embraced heliocentrism and evolution, despite past stances. As lumbering as such a large organization steeped in cherished tradition can be, it still has been able to change.

Point taken.

 

[Plato]

It is my understanding that the Catholic church still bans birth control methods. What is the reasoning behind this? And, if you are a Christian, do you or don't you accept that reasoning?

Also, I was curious if other religious traditions banned birth control, and what their reasons were as well.

It just seems to me that we have been quite fruitful, and we have certainly multiplied, to the point where humans are no longer able to be good stewards of the Earth.

Additionally, birth control allows families to better raise children they already have, by better organizing their finances and time. What is the problem with this?

The reasoning behind this dogma is really a matter of historical fact rather than religion. Christianity became the official state religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century AD and when it did so it unintentionally changed.
The popular Roman religions at the time were 'Manichaism' and 'Neo Platonism' (the old pagan religion of imaginary Jupiter/ Neptune etc. had mostly fallen into disuse except for official purposes).
Both Manichaeism and Neo Platonism were inspired from the 'East' and had taught the way to the 'divine' and God was through 'withdrawl' from the physical world. That people should give up...food, company of others, sex, comfort etc....and instead meditate, fast, pray constantly. That in doing so they could leave their physical bodies behind and become just 'souls' with God, much like the 'Great Soul' Bhudda had done and reach eternal life and Nirvana (they were not Bhuddists but similar in their 'Eastern' way to God). Of course none of this was Christianity or Judaism.
Nevertheless when top Manichaens/ Neo Platonists (like St. Augustine of Hippo) switched over to be Christians in the late 300's/ 400'sAD they wrote their prior beliefs into Christianity.
For the Manichaeans and Neo Platonists one of the worst things was...sex...They believed that above all that sex and sexual desire more than anything else enflamed peoples passions and distracted them from the path to God (i.e. the path of denial, withdrawl, meditation, prayer). So they made sex one of the greatest of sins and wrote it into Christianity that way in the 400'sAD (although it was never a Christian/or Jewish doctrine).
Later Christian theologians 'stuck' with the writings of Augustine etc. (the Roman Empire collapsed in the 400's AD and Augustine and other converted Neo Platonists, Manichaeans were the last to write) had to come up with a justification in the Middle Ages for sex (while accepting what Augustine and his crew had wrote).
They cracked their Bibles to the phrase.....'be fertile and multiply'....and in the Middle Ages ruled...sex was ...'ok'... but only to reproduce and make babies....otherwise they ruled it was the sin of 'lust' (one of the top 7 'deadly sins').
In this way they attempted to placate both Judaism/ Christianity (which had no/ few prohibitions against sex)....and Roman....Manichaeism/ Neo Platonism (which had lots of prohibitions against sex).
It's ironic that in the modern day of the 21st century we are able to look back on all history..and be able to see how a misunderstanding by important 4th/5th century AD converts, wrote another philosophy into Christianity. That the philosophy then became 'concrete' in the poor 'Dark Ages' , when no one dared question anything. And is still in effect now.
The Roman Catholics don't like birth control for the above ancient misunderstood reasons....from the Manichaeans/ Neo Platonists of 4th century Rome they got that sex was bad, from then recent top converts like Augustine of Hippo that it was a sin. From the Middle Ages that it was still a sin, 'but' allowed only for making babies (a necessity). They're against contraception now....because of this supid old history....Birth control allows people to have sex only for pleasure, not for babies. Their non Christian non Jewish Manichaean/ Neo platonic roots say that sex can't be had just for pleasure because pleasure is a Manichaean Neo platonic sin that takes people away from physical denial, isolation, meditation, and prayer (the Manichaean/ Neo Platonic way to God), but none of that is 'Christian'

 

[Quiddity]

Well, the Catholic church has embraced heliocentrism and evolution, despite past stances. As lumbering as such a large organization steeped in cherished tradition can be, it still has been able to change.

It's hard for the normal Joe to know what the RC will or will not change. So, if they see that it changed it's position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, no catholic would take it serious. Likewise, if you hear the RC making any claims on science or harry potter, it will normally be a bishop/priest and has no binding power over catholics. Just letting you know.

 

[cablescavenger]

One more thing to consider is that for the priesthood to embrace birth control would mean admiting they were wrong in the past. If they do that then what else might they have been wrong about? They don't want to open that can of worms.

I think they may have opened a bigger can of worms in present day Africa, teaching abstinence and that condoms do not prevent aids. I think that has been pretty controversial.

 

[Pegg]

We dont have anything against the type of pills which prevent any pregnancy from occurring....but it would certainly be wrong to choose a pill that aborts a child. some contraceptive pills actually are abortive...so a christian would need to be selective in the type of pill they choose.

 

[Looncall]

I think they may have opened a bigger can of worms in present day Africa, teaching abstinence and that condoms do not prevent aids. I think that has been pretty controversial.

I agree. I also think it is a crime against humanity.

 

[cablescavenger]

I agree. I also think it is a crime against humanity.

What I don't get is the level of protectionism that religious leaders are afforded.

I remember a few years ago in South Africa when President Mbeki, made spurious claims about HIV and AID's, there was outrage and he was quickly made to back pedal, and accused of killing his own people with wilful denials.

The Catholic church has billboards everywhere, and the pope saying no condoms, just abstinence and the lord, and we barely hear a wimper.

 

[Kathryn]

is...to catholicism.

as if using birth control is worse than getting aids, STD's or having an unwanted or an unsupportable child...

i don't get it.

Actually the RCC is not opposed to condom use for the prevention of STDs.

Just sayin'.

But the RCC is opposed to premarital or extramarital sex so there you have it.

 

[blackout]

Actually the RCC is not opposed to condom use for the prevention of STDs.

Just sayin'.

But the RCC is opposed to premarital or extramarital sex so there you have it.

So the only people who can use condoms are married heterosexual couples.
Presumably where one partner has an STD.

That's very practical and helpful.

 

[waitasec]

Actually the RCC is not opposed to condom use for the prevention of STDs.

Just sayin'.

But the RCC is opposed to premarital or extramarital sex so there you have it.

and if one uses a condom to prevent STD's is it not under the circumstances of premarital/extramarital affairs? why would a married couple who exclusively has sex with one another get STD's?

as if using birth control is worse than preventing an unwanted or an unsupportable child...
i suggest you check out the philippines...

just sayin...

 

[Viker]

It is my understanding that the Catholic church still bans birth control methods. What is the reasoning behind this? And, if you are a Christian, do you or don't you accept that reasoning?

Also, I was curious if other religious traditions banned birth control, and what their reasons were as well.

It just seems to me that we have been quite fruitful, and we have certainly multiplied, to the point where humans are no longer able to be good stewards of the Earth.

Additionally, birth control allows families to better raise children they already have, by better organizing their finances and time. What is the problem with this?

You never know when the plague, demons, consumption or even packs of wolves will take the little ones. It is better to side with being very fruitful and constantly multiplying than to live to a ripe old age with an empty basket.

 

[Quiddity]

and if one uses a condom to prevent STD's is it not under the circumstances of premarital/extramarital affairs? why would a married couple who exclusively has sex with one another get STD's?

as if using birth control is worse than preventing an unwanted or an unsupportable child...
i suggest you check out the philippines...

just sayin...

Lack of contraceptives doesn't have to mean you have a gazillion children.

 

[waitasec]

Lack of contraceptives doesn't have to mean you have a gazillion children.

what does it mean?

consider the philippines...
consider india...
consider any 3rd world country that is drowning in over population...
all because birth control is "one step down from an abortion"

 

[Quiddity]

what does it mean?

consider the philippines...
consider india...
consider any 3rd world country that is drowning in over population...
all because birth control is "one step down from an abortion"

I'm not being unrealisitic about what a lack of contraceptives does; I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not even challenging you on whether contraceptives fixes the problem of over population.........even though I could. Or on whether we have a problem of overpopulation to begin with. This is just in vogue and accepted as true because we have so many hungry kids. If they were being fed and had a home, no one would be saying a thing.

Take a LA for example, it can be said to be overpopulated and all you hear (depending on who you listen to) is on getting rid of the illegal aliens or how we can make the 5 freeway wider.

Why isn't anyone saying anything about contraceptives? Think about it.

 

[Falvlun]

For the Manichaeans and Neo Platonists one of the worst things was...sex...They believed that above all that sex and sexual desire more than anything else enflamed peoples passions and distracted them from the path to God (i.e. the path of denial, withdrawl, meditation, prayer). So they made sex one of the greatest of sins and wrote it into Christianity that way in the 400'sAD (although it was never a Christian/or Jewish doctrine).

Interesting history lesson. I too had a feeling that it simply came down to the idea that "sex is bad", and that anything that allows someone to enjoy sex just for the sake of sex, is also therefore bad.

My other pet theory is that since sex is such a deeply entrenched desire/instinct within us, it also makes a potent form of control over people: If you control an instinct, in many ways, you gain control over the person. Now, I don't think that the RCC or any other religion actually thought about things this way when they were creating their policies; I think it's just one of those unconscious facts of nature, and an ingrained tool of power.

 

[Falvlun]

It's hard for the normal Joe to know what the RC will or will not change. So, if they see that it changed it's position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, no catholic would take it serious. Likewise, if you hear the RC making any claims on science or harry potter, it will normally be a bishop/priest and has no binding power over catholics. Just letting you know.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but Pope John Paul II has stated that there is no conflict between faith and evolution, and that "Some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis...The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

I thought if the Pope says it's all right, then it's all right.

I'm not being unrealisitic about what a lack of contraceptives does; I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not even challenging you on whether contraceptives fixes the problem of over population.........even though I could. Or on whether we have a problem of overpopulation to begin with. This is just in vogue and accepted as true because we have so many hungry kids. If they were being fed and had a home, no one would be saying a thing.

Take a LA for example, it can be said to be overpopulated and all you hear (depending on who you listen to) is on getting rid of the illegal aliens or how we can make the 5 freeway wider.

Why isn't anyone saying anything about contraceptives? Think about it.

Why isn't anyone saying anything about controlling the growth of the human population? Because humans are selfish and short-sighted and the drive to procreate is so deeply entrenched that it's a difficult one to dislodge.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not being unrealisitic about what a lack of contraceptives does; I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not even challenging you on whether contraceptives fixes the problem of over population.........even though I could. Or on whether we have a problem of overpopulation to begin with. This is just in vogue and accepted as true because we have so many hungry kids. If they were being fed and had a home, no one would be saying a thing.

Take a LA for example, it can be said to be overpopulated and all you hear (depending on who you listen to) is on getting rid of the illegal aliens or how we can make the 5 freeway wider.

Why isn't anyone saying anything about contraceptives? Think about it.

then what's this thread all about?

 

[Quiddity]

I may be misunderstanding you here, but Pope John Paul II has stated that there is no conflict between faith and evolution, and that "Some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis...The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

I thought if the Pope says it's all right, then it's all right.

In general, yes. But it also depends in what capacity he speaks. Not everything he says is infallible. In fact, very little of what he says is infallible. The fact that it's not infallible doesn't mean he is wrong either, it just means you could possibly find some error. It generally deals with faith and morals. Not science, sports, or what have you......

What isn't anyone saying anything about controlling the growth of the human population? Because humans are selfish and short-sighted and the drive to procreate is so deeply entrenched that it's a difficult one to dislodge.

I didn't understand your first question, sorry...

 

[Kathryn]

So the only people who can use condoms are married heterosexual couples.
Presumably where one partner has an STD.

That's very practical and helpful.

I didn't say the RCC was practical OR helpful. I was just clarifying their position.

 

[Kathryn]

and if one uses a condom to prevent STD's is it not under the circumstances of premarital/extramarital affairs? why would a married couple who exclusively has sex with one another get STD's?

as if using birth control is worse than preventing an unwanted or an unsupportable child...
i suggest you check out the philippines...

just sayin...

See the post above.