whats your beef with brexit?

[LuisDantas]

No deal is the only way to get a good deal.

No deal is the Brexit backstop.

This feels almost custom made to use each one of the wrong goals and references available.

"Brexit" as an implicitly desirable goal, facts be darned.

"No Deal" as a deterrent to a second referendum, instead of the other way around.

Explicit attitude of wanting to strongarm his dissenters out of any choice. Or to be direct, wilingness to resort to authoritatianism.

It is my understanding that the referendum was made about two and a half years ago, largely under false presentation of the economic consequences of Brexit, and at a time when voters were largely misinformed.

To claim that it expressed the will of the people is arguable at best. To see it as justification against a second referendum is all-out arrogant and irrresponsible, given the severe challenges that the UK self-imposes with Brexit in general, and No Deal most of all.

Frankly, this speaker sounds like he does not expect to be taken seriously, and deep down knows that he does not deserve to.

On that much, I would agree with him.

It is people like him who are the true "Project Fear".

 

[Estro Felino]

This feels almost custom made to use each single wrong goals and references conceivable.

"Brexit" as an implicitly desirable goal, facts be darned.

"No Deal" as a deterrent to a second referendum, instead of the other way around.

Explicit attitude of wanting to strongarm his dissenters out of any choice. Or to be direct, wilingness to resort to authoritatianism.

It is my understanding that the referendum was made about two and a half years ago, largely under false presentation of the economic consequences of Brexit, and at a time when voters were largely misinformed.

To claim that it expressed the will of the people is arguable at best. To see it as justification against a second referendum is all-out arrogant and irrresponsible, given the severe challenges that the UK self-imposes with Brexit in general, and No Deal most of all.

Frankly, this speaker sounds like he does not expect to be taken seriously, and deep down knows that he does not deserve to.

On that much, I would agree with him.

It is people like him who are the true "Project Fear".

Can you please answer me honestly, Luis:
Do you really believe Juncker and Barnier (and others) have acted honestly and in good faith towards Britain throughout the last 2 years?

 

[LuisDantas]

Can you please answer me honestly, Luis:
Do you really believe Juncker and Barnier (and others) have acted honestly and in good faith towards Britain throughout the last 2 years?

I do not think that it is at all a critical question to make, but sure, I do think so.

More than that, I think that the UK has breen pressing its luck and testing the limits of the good will of the EU with this talk of Brexit.

There is IMO a very real risk that the UK will realize that Brexit was never a good idea, but only too late to be accepted back. That will be to everyone's loss, but for the UK most of all.

 

[Altfish]

Can you please answer me honestly, Luis:
Do you really believe Juncker and Barnier (and others) have acted honestly and in good faith towards Britain throughout the last 2 years?

I also think so.
They have a club, a member wants to leave but keep all the privileges; what would you do. I know I'd say "NO" and drive a hard bargain.

The problem with Theresa May (and Jeremy Corbyn for that matter) is she is more interested in keeping her party together than negotiating for the good of the country. If she was interested in the latter, she would honestly say, "The country is going to be worse off, let's call it off" she knows that as does Corbyn. BUT the nut jobs like Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Davis, etc are directing her.

 

[LuisDantas]

I also think so.
They have a club, a member wants to leave but keep all the privileges; what would you do. I know I'd say "NO" and drive a hard bargain.

The problem with Theresa May (and Jeremy Corbyn for that matter) is she is more interested in keeping her party together than negotiating for the good of the country. If she was interested in the latter, she would honestly say, "The country is going to be worse off, let's call it off" she knows that as does Corbyn. BUT the nut jobs like Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Davis, etc are directing her.

I am disappointed with Corbyn (more even than with May) for not proposing the second referendum front and center, sooner rather than too late.

A better solution will not present itself, and despite the insistence of some very outspoken people, it can hardly be called an undemocratic measure.

 

[Estro Felino]

I do not think that it is at all a critical question to make, but sure, I do think so.

Ok..but this suffices to convince the British that exiting a system led by a fraudulent gang is a superb idea

 

[Notanumber]

I have just watched Dominic Raab and Liam Fox on the Andrew Marr Show and they spoke the most sense of all the other politicians that were featured.

They understand what the will of the people is all about and the severe consequences if arrogant parliamentarians ignore that will.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ok..but this suffices to convince the British that exiting a system led by a fraudulent gang is a superb idea

I don't know.

Despite your insistence, that is not what we are talking about.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have just watched Dominic Raab and Liam Fox on the Andrew Marr Show and they spoke the most sense of all the other politicians that were featured.

They understand what the will of the people is all about and the severe consequences if arrogant parliamentarians ignore that will.

That would mean that you support a second referendum, but somehow I don't think that is what you mean to say.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know.

Despite your insistence, that is not what we are talking about.

Yes...that is what we are talking about. Brexit is not a caprice of the British people's. It's the explosion of decades of dissatisfaction, and those Brussels élites need to come down the pedestal to realize it.
They could have tried to convince Britain to remain by changing the treaties.

 

[Notanumber]

That would mean that you support a second referendum, but somehow I don't think that is what you mean to say.

You probably cannot watch the Andrew Marr Show to find out what I meant.

 

[Altfish]

I have just watched Dominic Raab and Liam Fox on the Andrew Marr Show and they spoke the most sense of all the other politicians that were featured.

They understand what the will of the people is all about and the severe consequences if arrogant parliamentarians ignore that will.

All the evidence is that the people's will (Now they know the facts and the youngsters are no longer complacent) is to Remain.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes...that is what we are talking about.

Maybe you are.

I am not. I would not even know how to try to.

Brexit is not a caprice of the British people's.

It is mostly one of a few irresponsible politicians and their sycophants, from what I figure.

It's the explosion of decades of dissatisfaction, and those Brussels élites need to come down the pedestal to realize it.

Well, you will have to tell that tale. I don't think it can be supported in real facts.

They could have tried to convince Britain to remain by changing the treaties.

There is only so far that one can advance that way without compromising self-respect.

 

[LuisDantas]

You probably cannot watch the Andrew Marr Show to find out what I meant.

You mean this?

I have just good enough a grasp of spoken English to follow it with a bit of effort.

Still, it is almost a full hour of a talk show that comes from an ideological place that is very much unlike mine. Give me a bit of time to form an opinion and get back to you.

 

[Notanumber]

All the evidence is that the people's will (Now they know the facts and the youngsters are no longer complacent) is to Remain.

The only reason the Remoaners want another chance to destroy Brexit is because they mistakenly believe that a loser’s vote would give them the result they crave for.

Talk about being desperate!

I have never voted for the Labour Party and never will but I have to admire and respect this MP.

 

[Altfish]

The only reason the Remoaners want another chance to destroy Brexit is because they mistakenly believe that a loser’s vote would give them the result they crave for.

Talk about being desperate!

On the contrary.

For someone on the side that claims to believe in democracy, it is you who are being desperate.
It is now nearly 3-years since the vote and facts have emerged. There is no £350m for the NHS; Turkey and Albania are not joining the EU; Trade deals are NOT easy, etc, etc.
The People change their minds (Otherwise we would always have the same Government) - so as a believer in democracy why do you fear The People's Vote. If the 'will of the people' is the leave, then you must be very confident that you will easily win.

 

[LuisDantas]

The only reason the Remoaners want another chance to destroy Brexit is because they mistakenly believe that a loser’s vote would give them the result they crave for.

"Remoaners" is a pejorative for "remainers", who are of course are people who want to stop Brexit. That is what "remainer" means.

I am not sure if you mean to say that they should be ashamed of opposing Brexit simply because they oppose Brexit. It sort of feels that you do. If such is the case, then you are just expressing the intensity of your emotion, not presenting an argument of any sort.

What constitutes a "loser's vote" in this context? Is it a disrespectful reference towards the second referendum, or do you mean something else?

Talk about being desperate!

What? Do you think people are caring too much about Brexit?

It sort of looks like a consequential thing, particularly when it comes to effects in the economy. Of course it will bring passions - in both sides, I would wager.

I have never voted for the Labour Party and never will but I have to admire and respect this MP.

I fail to see why it would be admirable to be stubborn and proud on defiance of very justified worries and real facts.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is only so far that one can advance that way without compromising self-respect.

To me it suffices to know that Maastricht and Lisbon are two juridic aberrations, two treaties that insult the Italian Constitution and its most sacred principles.

 

[LuisDantas]

To me it suffices to know that Maastricht and Lisbon are two juridic aberrations, two treaties that insult the Italian Constitution and its most sacred principles.

There is no doubt that you dislike the treaties and, I must assume, the EU.

How are other people to deal with that is far less clear.

 

[Notanumber]

When the government forced David Davis to resign and appointed Dominic Raab as his replacement, they probably thought he would be a yes man.

When they found out, he had principles he had to go as well.

I thought he was wrong to accept the position but when he realised that they wanted him as a fall guy and resigned he proved me wrong.

What happened has given him a much higher profile and I like what he says.