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whats your beef with brexit?

Altfish

Veteran Member
Do as I say not as I do.
  • Nigel Farage - won't march, wants others to
  • James Dyson - left the UK
  • Nigel Lawson - wanted to leave UK
  • James Ratcliffe - left UK
  • Jacob Rees Mogg - Moved investments from UK to EU
  • Aaron Banks - off-shore tax havens

Mike#FBPE on Twitter
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This makes you wonder what the UK government has been doing for the past 2+ years apart from twiddling their thumbs.


Far as I can tell, the most accurate answer seems to be "trying to preserve the current political parties, probably foolishly so".

My current understanding is that David Cameron did a big mistake by proposing the 2016 referendum. So-called "Eurosceptcism" in the UK is a big if rather questionable force in the Conservative Party and he hoped to give it a venue of expression by way of the referendum, only to have them fall in line afterwards. Obviously, that was a serious miscalculation which led to the need for his stepping down from politics altogether.

I call that a mistake, but this may be an unfair judgement. There are significant indications that he may have had no better option. It may well be that the UK does in fact need to go through a significant period of Brexit-themed reality shock. There is, I have learned, a proud isolationistic passion in much of the British media pushing for Brexit, and many people give it far more ear than it could ever deserve. It is not in Theresa May's power to decree that the ERG and other foolish groups should learn better, and it certainly wasn't in David Cameron's power either. Ultimately, it takes the publish awareness of the British to keep such voices in their place.

The 2016 referendum was deeply flawed from conception, seeing how it failed to address necessary matters of adherence to customs union in Ireland and to the European Single Market. That may have been a deliberate, calculated if ultimately naive choice. Cameron seems to have decided to bet on the power of a simple, nuanceless referendum - albeit one of deliberately ambiguous legal power - to alleviate political pressure over him. He was clearly overly optimistic. Had the vote gone the other way, there would be no need to address the practical significance of a Brexit. But it did not, and the need is real, grave, and badly addressed to this day.

Regardless of superficial appearances and official standings, the actual main issue actually being discussed since 2016 has little to do with Brexit proper. Some people have genuine interest in discussing the necessary technical and legal matters, but they are too ineffectual. I am not sure on whether the main reason is a lack of public support or whether the fault lies in the self-preservation needs of the Conservative and Labour Parties.

Either way, both Parties are in an impossible situation. Conservative needs to seek a way of preserving party unity while at the same time dealing with the utterly irresponsible and opportunistic ERG, meaning that they are prisoners of their own ambition, caught in a loop of nurturing impossible hopes and seeing them destroyed by the reality of facts time and again. Labour is stuck with Jeremy Corbyn, who is in some ways just as stubborn and unrealistic as the ERG despite being head of a largely reasonable representation. It seems to me that the current impasse is mainly a direct result of hoping to solve among the MPs a problem that is ultimately created outside of its scope. There is only so much that they can do while given impossible expectations and utterly inadequate tools.

Theresa May can't make it so that the EU needs to give even further concessions to the UK. Jeremy Corbyn can't make it so that the general public has better awareness of the true consequences of a Brexit, mainly because he seems to be in denial himself. Most MPs are essentially powerless, because worries about breaking up their fragile parties have raised too high. No one can make Brexit constructive in and of itself, since it amounts to feeding commercial and political relationships with hubris where maturity is called for.

It may very well be (and is IMO the most likely future at this pont) that there will be a No Deal Brexit, quite possibly this March 29th still. The postponement is by no means a given, since there are 26 or even 27 chances of forbidding it entirely. Even if it is conceded, there is little hope of solving much of relevance if the only significant change is a bit more of time. Ultimately, the House of Commons is its own main adversary, and needs quite a bit of public awareness and support to break its own impasse. There is no clear path towards that necessary change that does not involve swallowing the bitter pill of actually going through Brexit and earning the disastrous results.
 
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Notanumber

A Free Man
If only Davis and Johnson had got their fingers out and sorted it whilst they were in charge instead of running away.
The EU knew their position and stuck to it, we still do not have a position.

That is because we had and still have a Remainer in chief.

If she would do the decent thing, walk away from office, and take her entourage with her a Brexiteer leader would be able to sort out the mess her week and submissive government has created.

If we need a General Election to get back to normality then so be it.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Far as I can tell, the most accurate answer seems to be "trying to preserve the current political parties, probably foolishly so".

My current understanding is that David Cameron did a big mistake by proposing the 2016 referendum. So-called "Eurosceptcism" in the UK is a big if rather questionable force in the Conservative Party and he hoped to give it a venue of expression by way of the referendum, only to have them fall in line afterwards. Obviously, that was a serious miscalculation which led to the need for his stepping down from politics altogether.

I call that a mistake, but this may be an unfair judgement. There are significant indications that he may have had no better option. It may well be that the UK does in fact need to go through a significant period of Brexit-themed reality shock. There is, I have learned, a proud isolationistic passion in much of the British media pushing for Brexit, and many people give it far more ear than it could ever deserve. It is not Therese May's power to decree that the ERG and other foolish groups should learn better, and it certainly wasn't in David Cameron's power either. Ultimately, it takes the publish awareness of the British to keep such voices in their place.

The 2016 referendum was deeply flawed from conception, seeing how it failed to address necessary matters of adherence to customs union in Ireland and to the European Single Market. That may have been a deliberate, calculated if ultimately naive choice. Cameron seems to have decided to bet on the power of a simple, nuanceless referendum - albeit one of deliberately ambiguous legal power - to alleviate political pressure over him. He was clearly overly optimistic. Had the vote gone the other way, there would be no need to address the practical significance of a Brexit. But it did not, and the need is real, grave, and badly addressed to this day.

Regardless of superficial appearances and official standings, the actual main issue actually being discussed since 2016 has little to do with Brexit proper. Some people have genuine interest in discussing the necessary technical and legal matters, but they are too ineffectual. I am not sure on whether the main reason is a lack of public support or whether the fault lies in the self-preservation needs of the Conservative and Labour Parties.

Either way, both Parties are in an impossible situation. Conservative needs to seek a way of preserving party unity while at the same time dealing with the utterly irresponsible and opportunistic ERG, meaning that they are prisoners of their own ambition, caught in a loop of nurturing impossible hopes and seeing them destroyed by the reality of facts time and again. Labour is stuck with Jeremy Corbyn, who is in some ways just as stubborn and unrealistic as the ERG despite being head of a largely reasonable representation. It seems to me that the current impasse is mainly a direct result of hoping to solve among the MPs a problem that is ultimately created outside of its scope. There is only so much that they can do while given impossible expectations and utterly inadequate tools.

Theresa May can't make it so that the EU needs to give even further concessions to the UK. Jeremy Corbyn can't make it so that the general public has better awareness of the true consequences of a Brexit, mainly because he seems to be in denial himself. Most MPs are essentially powerless, because worries about breaking up their fragile parties have raised too high. No one can make Brexit constructive in and of itself, since it amounts to feeding commercial and political relationships with hubris where maturity is called for.

It may very well be (and is IMO the most likely future at this pont) that there will be a No Deal Brexit, quite possibly this March 29th still. The postponement is by no means a given, since there are 26 or even 27 chances of forbidding it entirely. Even if it is conceded, there is little hope of solving much of relevance if the only significant change is a bit more of time. Ultimately, the House of Commons is its own main adversary, and needs quite a bit of public awareness and support to break its own impasse. There is no clear path towards that necessary change that does not involve swallowing the bitter pill of actually going through Brexit and earning the disastrous results.

The political classes arrogantly took the British population for granted back in 2016 and to their discredit, they are still doing so.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The political classes arrogantly took the British population for granted back in 2016 and to their discredit, they are still doing so.
True. However, the reverse is just as true. And it can be argued that a part of being a MP is to assume popular support for one's political stance.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
a Brexiteer leader would be able to sort out the mess her week and submissive government has created

So you have an answer to the Irish border that isn't founded in actual Leaver ideas like: Microchip the Irish or let them join the UK?

Please share your solution to the Irish border and Good Friday agreement.


If we need a General Election to get back to normality then so be it.

A new election won't solve anything.
Your country is divided and this would again be represented in Parliament.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
A new election won't solve anything.
Your country is divided and this would again be represented in Parliament.
Unfortunately, we also have an incompetent Government (The Tories) and the most ineffective opposition (Labour) ever.- the only good thing another election will achieve is two new leaders.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I can’t help but wonder what sneaky trick the Speaker has up his sleeve although the Leader of the House did seem rather taken-a-back.

 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I can’t help but wonder what sneaky trick the Speaker has up his sleeve although the Leader of the House did seem rather taken-a-back.

It was not 'sneaky' he flagged last night's statement when Theresa's last vote failed, saying something like, "I have a ruling to make".
If he was being 'sneaky' he'd have said nothing until the PM presented her motion and then refused to take it forward for a vote; as it is he's given her plenty of notice.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
It was not 'sneaky' he flagged last night's statement when Theresa's last vote failed, saying something like, "I have a ruling to make".
If he was being 'sneaky' he'd have said nothing until the PM presented her motion and then refused to take it forward for a vote; as it is he's given her plenty of notice.

I am not talking about what he did do. I am talking about what he might do next.

He is a Remainer after all.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
James O'Brien's take on the march...

"It's the best illustration of Brexit you'll ever see.
60 or 70 poor souls abandoned in the weather by wealthy business, media and political figures who are back in London, dry, warm and wealthy

And yet, still they trust, still they believe. I don't get it. How much more evidence do you need that the people you trusted did not deserve your trust and the people you derided and dismissed were sticking up for your interests all along.
How do they keep getting away with it? The people who told you this was a stupid thing to do could not have been proved more right.
And yet, still the invitation to blame it on the people who told you we could have our cake and eat it, the people who said we would be inhabiting the sunny uplands, the people who told you that they needed us more than we needed them, the people who told you that the German car industry wouldn't countenance any form of Brexit at all that damaged their interests, the people who told you that it would be the easiest deal in human history."
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
How to confuse Brexiteers....

Get the speaker to exercise Parliamentary sovereignty that the leaver campaign said we didn't have.

Thanks to the HIGNFY crew for that one.

It would appear that people who wanted to "take back control" from an organisation they didn't understand the operation of, are upset that they don't understand the operation of the organisation they wanted to give control back to. (again stolen from Twitter)

Just wait until they discover that we have even less control when we start trading under WTO rules...."Doh, nobody told me that...Project Fear"
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Mrs May made a speech last night to address the nation, but she should have asked Anne Marie to write it for her.


Is Mrs May and the Tory party prepared to commit political suicide rather than respect the will of the people?

 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Mrs May made a speech last night to address the nation, but she should have asked Anne Marie to write it for her.

Is Mrs May and the Tory party prepared to commit political suicide rather than respect the will of the people?
The will of which people are you referring to?
The 500 who are marching for Brexit or the half million that marched for Remain
 
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