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whats your beef with brexit?

Notanumber

A Free Man
Andrew Neil is going to be sadly missed when he has gone. How many other political interviewers could have exposed Ken Clarke for what he is?

 

Notanumber

A Free Man
This is untrue. Redwood was cut-off because he lied once on air, was given the chance to substantiate his claims but completely side-stepped it to repeat the lie. He was cut-off because Channel 4 do not want to become purveyors of fake news.

I wish they would do it more often; when politicians start saying stuff that is undeniably false they should be held to account and not given the air time.

Will you be calling George a liar as well for confirming what John Redwood apparently said?

 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The idea that a second referendum would not be "democratic enough" is complete bollocks.

It takes a superlative ability of denial to fail to notice that the 2016 vote was not nearly clarifying enough for an actual Brexit to be delimited. Or that the division of opinions among those who have to deal with the important details is plenty significant enough to require decisions that will unavoidably be divisive.

Still, the very fact that the predictions of leavers three years ago have been shown to be false (if not outright lies) and that the voters and MPs both have learned so much more about Brexit models and their likely consequences would be quite enough to justify a confirmation vote.

It is certainly not the case that anyone is attaining clear support for any alternative, either. There is a very obvious impasse, and no British person benefits ethically from it.

I find considerable blame in Jeremy Corbyn for his complete failure to support the People's Vote at every opportunity that he had. His stubborness created lots of avoidable sorrow. That said, the Tories themselves ought to realize that the confirmation vote has not been optional for a good while already. Someone will have to take a stance for or against a Customs Union and the Single Market, and there is in truth no way to know how those options would distribute themselves in the 2016 vote if fully spelled there.

To refuse the 2019 People's Vote while insisting that the 2016 Brexit Vote is "the people's will" and must be enforced makes no logical nor ethical sense whatsoever.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Because another referendum would be another stitch up. Who can trust our leaders now?

Channel 4 owes John Redwood a sincere apology for their disgraceful actions.
Well, I agree the first one was a stitch up ... oh wait, Brexit won that.

Redwood deserves an apology - don't make me laugh
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
The idea that a second referendum would not be "democratic enough" is complete bollocks.

It takes a superlative ability of denial to fail to notice that the 2016 vote was not nearly clarifying enough for an actual Brexit to be delimited. Or that the division of opinions among those who have to deal with the important details is plenty significant enough to require decisions that will unavoidably be divisive.

Still, the very fact that the predictions of leavers three years ago have been shown to be false (if not outright lies) and that the voters and MPs both have learned so much more about Brexit models and their likely consequences would be quite enough to justify a confirmation vote.

It is certainly not the case that anyone is attaining clear support for any alternative, either. There is a very obvious impasse, and no British person benefits ethically from it.

I find considerable blame in Jeremy Corbyn for his complete failure to support the People's Vote at every opportunity that he had. His stubborness created lots of avoidable sorrow. That said, the Tories themselves ought to realize that the confirmation vote has not been optional for a good while already. Someone will have to take a stance for or against a Customs Union and the Single Market, and there is in truth no way to know how those options would distribute themselves in the 2016 vote if fully spelled there.

To refuse the 2019 People's Vote while insisting that the 2016 Brexit Vote is "the people's will" and must be enforced makes no logical nor ethical sense whatsoever.

This should help you to understand.

 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Sorry, that does not work with me.

I am not capable of taking appeals for sovereignity at all seriously under the best of circunstances.

Brexit suffers from an inherent reliance on the idea, and for that reason among several is utterly beyond my respect.

Same with "defense of national values". They are simply not something worth protecting, by definition.

Brexit is not the result of a clash of cultures, but of attachment to delusions.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Sorry, that does not work with me.

I am not capable of taking appeals for sovereignity at all seriously under the best of circunstances.

Brexit suffers from an inherent reliance on the idea, and for that reason among several is utterly beyond my respect.

Same with "defense of national values". They are simply not something worth protecting, by definition.

Brexit is not the result of a clash of cultures, but of attachment to delusions.

Is it standard practice for votes to be disregarded in Brazil?

This is something new and not well liked in the UK.

The elites will find this out when we vote them out of office.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is it standard practice for votes to be disregarded in Brazil?

No.

Are you trying to push the idea that the 2016 vote "is not being respected"? I would advise against such a silly attempt.
This is something new and not well liked in the UK.

The elites will find this out when we vote them out of office.

You are funny, in a sort of way.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
No.

Are you trying to push the idea that the 2016 vote "is not being respected"? I would advise against such a silly attempt.


You are funny, in a sort of way.

I have no idea about what the population of Brazil feels about their politicians but I do know what the population of the UK feel about our politicians.

I wonder how long it will take before the politicians realise it.

You may think that I am funny but the rest of the world thinks the UK is a joke after the way our elites have handled the Brexit vote.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I have no idea about what the population of Brazil feels about their politicians but I do know what the population of the UK feel about our politicians.

I wonder how long it will take before the politicians realise it.

You may think that I am funny but the rest of the world thinks the UK is a joke after the way our elites have handled the Brexit vote.
Yes, I think we all agree the UK is currently a joke.
Why is it a joke?
We are a joke because we are trying to leave one of the most successful partnerships in world history and crash into a world of uncertainty based on lies and fraudulent campaigns.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I have no idea about what the population of Brazil feels about their politicians but I do know what the population of the UK feel about our politicians.

I wonder how long it will take before the politicians realise it.

You may think that I am funny but the rest of the world thinks the UK is a joke after the way our elites have handled the Brexit vote.
Incompetent politicians are widely visible everywhere.

But not too many people go out of their way to pursue serious economic disadvantage and remove themselves from the decision making of their own best interests out of nationalistic pride.

Any place that gives the likes of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and particularly Jacob Ress-Mogg at all seriously has a lot of pride to swallow and of lessons to learn. Those people are great for comedy sketches, not so much for anything else.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Yes, I think we all agree the UK is currently a joke.
Why is it a joke?
We are a joke because we are trying to leave one of the most successful partnerships in world history and crash into a world of uncertainty based on lies and fraudulent campaigns.

Such pride you have in your country!

The lies and fraudulent campaigns started with Ted Heath and Jeremy Thorpe in the early seventies.

If the elites refuse to accept the will of the people and they revoke article 50, we will join forces with the rest of Europe and bring the EU to its knees.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Incompetent politicians are widely visible everywhere.

But not too many people go out of their way to pursue serious economic disadvantage and remove themselves from the decision making of their own best interests out of nationalistic pride.

Any place that gives the likes of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and particularly Jacob Ress-Mogg at all seriously has a lot of pride to swallow and of lessons to learn. Those people are great for comedy sketches, not so much for anything else.

I am backing this man and his party.

Gerard Batten MEP

We also have a new Margaret Thatcher and her party.

Policy

The UK needs strong leaders not EU lapdogs.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Such pride you have in your country!

The lies and fraudulent campaigns started with Ted Heath and Jeremy Thorpe in the early seventies.

If the elites refuse to accept the will of the people and they revoke article 50, we will join forces with the rest of Europe and bring the EU to its knees.
I disagree, pre-joining the UK was described as "The basket case of Europe"
We are now up near the top and heading for a self-inflicted fall.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I disagree, pre-joining the UK was described as "The basket case of Europe"
We are now up near the top and heading for a self-inflicted fall.

Would we have voted to stay in back then if we had been told the truth by Heath and his associates?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Would we have voted to stay in back then if we had been told the truth by Heath and his associates?
We voted 2/3 to 1/3 to join if I remember correctly.
What falsehoods were we told?

Now I've answered yours, please answer my question...
Would we have voted to leave in back in 2016 then if we had been told the truth by Johnson, Davis, Farage and their associates?
 
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