whats your beef with brexit?

[Notanumber]

We voted 2/3 to 1/3 to join if I remember correctly.
What falsehoods were we told?

Now I've answered yours, please answer my question...
Would we have voted to leave in back in 2016 then if we had been told the truth by Johnson, Davis, Farage and their associates?

We were never given the chance to vote.

Heath took the UK into the EEC without giving us a chance to vote. Harold Wilson gave us a chance to vote to leave but Heath and his associates lied through their back teeth to keep us in.

You seem to be obsessed by three people. Whatever they did, they did not resort to project fear.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

We were never given the chance to vote.

Because the UK is not a direct democracy. Parliament chose to take the UK into the EEC and Parliament is sovereign (in England).

It's hilarious that so many Brexiteers voted Leave to 'restore Parliamentary sovereignty' without doing this research beforehand. Hilarious, but not surprising.

 

[Notanumber]

Because the UK is not a direct democracy. Parliament chose to take the UK into the EEC and Parliament is sovereign (in England).

It's hilarious that so many Brexiteers voted Leave to 'restore Parliamentary sovereignty' without doing this research beforehand. Hilarious, but not surprising.

The population is sovereign. The Parliamentarians are supposed to work for the people. We pay their wages.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

 

[LuisDantas]

The population is sovereign. The Parliamentarians are supposed to work for the people. We pay their wages.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

You are welcome to attempt to legislate on your own... and to magically know how to convince others and to attain the technical knowledge necessary to, for instance, enforce migration laws or to plan food shipments.

 

[Notanumber]

You are welcome to attempt to legislate on your own... and to magically know how to convince others and to attain the technical knowledge necessary to, for instance, enforce migration laws or to plan food shipments.

We pay Parliamentarians very well to do all that for us. The problem is that they have been shown up as not being very good at it.

 

[LuisDantas]

We pay Parliamentarians very well to do all that for us. The problem is that they have been shown up as not being very good at it.

No MP can be half good at delivering tall tales.

It is no coincidence that the ERG runs the heck out of actual responsibility after inciting the passions.

 

[Notanumber]

No MP can be half good at delivering tall tales.

It is no coincidence that the ERG runs the heck out of actual responsibility after inciting the passions.

Our MPs only seem to be good at implementing what the EU tells them to implement.

 

[Altfish]

We were never given the chance to vote.

Heath took the UK into the EEC without giving us a chance to vote. Harold Wilson gave us a chance to vote to leave but Heath and his associates lied through their back teeth to keep us in.

You need to study history, we had a referendum to join and as I said it was overwhelming in favour; not a close run thing.

1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum - Wikipedia

You seem to be obsessed by three people. Whatever they did, they did not resort to project fear.

No, they are easily remembered names and were the liers in chief - and they continue to be.

 

[Notanumber]

You need to study history, we had a referendum to join and as I said it was overwhelming in favour; not a close run thing.

1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum - Wikipedia


No, they are easily remembered names and were the liers in chief - and they continue to be.

Have you ever considered reading what you link to?

Common Market referendum and EEC membership referendum, took place under the provisions of the Referendum Act 1975 on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Communities (EC) — often known at the time as the European Community and the Common Market — which it had entered two and a half years earlier on 1 January 1973 under the Conservative government of Edward Heath. Labour's manifesto for the October 1974 general election had promised that the people would decide through the ballot box whether to remain in the EC.[1]

This was the first national referendum ever to be held throughout the entire United Kingdom and remained the only UK-wide referendum until the 2011 referendum on alternative voting was held thirty-six years later and was the only referendum to be held on the UK's relationship with Europe until the 2016 referendum on continued EU membership.

This is interesting.

 

[Altfish]

Have you ever considered reading what you link to?

Common Market referendum and EEC membership referendum, took place under the provisions of the Referendum Act 1975 on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Communities (EC) — often known at the time as the European Community and the Common Market — which it had entered two and a half years earlier on 1 January 1973 under the Conservative government of Edward Heath. Labour's manifesto for the October 1974 general election had promised that the people would decide through the ballot box whether to remain in the EC.[1]

This was the first national referendum ever to be held throughout the entire United Kingdom and remained the only UK-wide referendum until the 2011 referendum on alternative voting was held thirty-six years later and was the only referendum to be held on the UK's relationship with Europe until the 2016 referendum on continued EU membership.

This is interesting.

I linked to a referendum you said we didn't have. And before you say anything we had a veto all all changes consequently made to the EU. By people some of whom were elected by us.

 

[Notanumber]

I linked to a referendum you said we didn't have. And before you say anything we had a veto all all changes consequently made to the EU. By people some of whom were elected by us.

As I said -

Heath took the UK into the EEC without giving us a chance to vote. Harold Wilson gave us a chance to vote to leave but Heath and his associates lied through their back teeth to keep us in.

 

[Altfish]

As I said -

Yes, but we were given a chance to leave; and we voted with by a landslide to stay in.
There was also no lying about £350m/week or the NHS and the likes,

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The population is sovereign.

This concept exists in Scottish law but not English Common Law, sorry.

The Parliamentarians are supposed to work for the people. We pay their wages.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Parliamentarians are elected to make decisions affecting law on behalf of the people and they're supposed to put the good of the country first. This does not mean, legally speaking, that the people are sovereign. To put it in context: Brexit is a bad decision; this is agreed upon by experts who've actually researched the subject and know what they're talking about. This is why Parliament has rejected a no-deal Brexit. Furthermore, Parliament is not obligated to respect the decision of an advisory referendum; particularly when that result was gained by breaking the law.

I get where you're coming from, and I do agree that Parliamentarians should be more beholden than they are; that's just not the way Westminster works, unfortunately. In Westminster we elect representatives to enact laws on our behalf, where common plebiscites on every issue or decision would be impractical.

We pay Parliamentarians very well to do all that for us. The problem is that they have been shown up as not being very good at it.

* Acting to our nebulous and ill-defined will.

FTFY

 

[Notanumber]

Yes, but we were given a chance to leave; and we voted with by a landslide to stay in.
There was also no lying about £350m/week or the NHS and the likes,

There was no Internet back then so they could BS us with impunity. This is why they want to restrict free speech now.

You do not know what lying is if you have not listened to Heath and Thorpe.

Gisela Stewart was spot on in the video above.

 

[Notanumber]

This concept exists in Scottish law but not English Common Law, sorry.




Parliamentarians are elected to make decisions affecting law on behalf of the people and they're supposed to put the good of the country first. This does not mean, legally speaking, that the people are sovereign. To put it in context: Brexit is a bad decision; this is agreed upon by experts who've actually researched the subject and know what they're talking about. This is why Parliament has rejected a no-deal Brexit. Furthermore, Parliament is not obligated to respect the decision of an advisory referendum; particularly when that result was gained by breaking the law.

I get where you're coming from, and I do agree that Parliamentarians should be more beholden than they are; that's just not the way Westminster works, unfortunately. In Westminster we elect representatives to enact laws on our behalf, where common plebiscites on every issue or decision would be impractical.



* Acting to our nebulous and ill-defined will.

FTFY

If Brexit is such a dreadful concept, why did Cameron give us a referendum, why did both major parties state that they would honour it in the 2017 general election and why did 498 Mps vote for Article 50, which had no deal as the backstop?

 

[Altfish]

If Brexit is such a dreadful concept, why did Cameron give us a referendum, why did both major parties state that they would honour it in the 2017 general election and why did 498 Mps vote for Article 50, which had no deal as the backstop?

Cameron gave us a referendum for the same reason that Brexit is in such a mess now.
The unity of the Tory party comes before the well being of the country

 

[LuisDantas]

If Brexit is such a dreadful concept, why did Cameron give us a referendum,

From all indications, because he wanted to appease the hardline Brexiteers in his party and miscalculated the results of the referendum.

It was certainly a mistake, and a serious one, although it pales when compared to what came later.

why did both major parties state that they would honour it in the 2017 general election

Because they were major parties and probably wanted to remain being such?

You are here asking, in essence, how come a democratic system shows respect for the popular vote.

As things stand, you are calling people "undemocratic" for wanting a (quite necessary, mind you) People's Vote that may well reverse the result.

and why did 498 Mps vote for Article 50, which had no deal as the backstop?

You would have to ask them, I suppose. It stands to reason that many must have felt that showing reluctance would be denounced as attempts at sabotaging the result of the referendum and/or as failure to support their Party.

I have checked the list of votes. Here is the breakup, by my account. The totals are 498 for, 114 against. Make of them what you will, but I sure think that your question should be directed mainly towards the Conservative and Labour Parties.

Conservative - 319 for, 1 against.

Labour - 151 for, 40 against.

Labour Co-op - 16 for, 7 against.

DUP - 8 votes for.

UUP - 2 for.

UKIP - 1 for.

Independents - 1 for, 3 against.

Green - 1 against.

Plaid Cymru - 2 against.

SDL - 3 against.

Liberal Democrat - 7 against.

SNP - 49 against.


Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-labour-conservative-how-voted-a7558291.html

In retrospect, I must assume that many of them have since repented. We all ended up at least somewhat surprised by the way things turned out, did we not?

All the same, it seems to me that a more logical question would be "why did you elect so many MPs that supported Brexit so blindly" instead.

It is hardly unusual for major parties MPs to vote overwhelmingly in line with the avowed stance of the Prime Minister, their parties, or their own voter bases if they feel that it would be politically inconvenient for them to do otherwise, even if they believe or expect the proposal to be destructive.

Nor is it unusual for them to ignore qualified, informed opinions while at that.

They are, after all, ellected mouthpieces with no particular technical qualifications.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

If Brexit is such a dreadful concept, why did Cameron give us a referendum,

As has been explained to you, again and again, Cameron did it to appease the Eurosceptics in his party and to head off a potential loss of voters to UKIP.

He may or may not have counted on the fact that Vote Leave would break the law in order to win, and that his successor would be too spineless to accept this.

why did both major parties state that they would honour it in the 2017 general election

Because they didn't want to render themselves so unpopular they became unelectable.

and why did 498 Mps vote for Article 50, which had no deal as the backstop?

Probably for much the same reason as above. We were also told though that the triggering of Article 50 would announce the commencement of the negotiation process proper. Too bad the EU were hoping we'd actually know what kind of Brexit we wanted before ministers sat down to negotiate.

 

[Notanumber]

All the posts since my last post indicate that we need to be able to vote for some honourable MPs from parties with a proven track record and a strong leader instead of those that use spin to their own short-term advantage.

At least, all this chaos has highlighted those that need to be voted out of office in the next general election that I hope takes place very soon.

 

[LuisDantas]

"Giving the country away". I have heard so many variations of that claim along the years.

It never has any true meaning, but it is appealling to some people anyway.

Edited to add: Ironically enough, it is plenty popular here in Brazil as well.

That is very odd, once one considers that by any objective measure only considerably less than one Brazilian in one hundred can even claim to have been Brazilians at all going back a couple dozen generations or so.

In a very concrete sense, we are the invaders and the descendants of the invaders and of the killers of the true Brazilians.

You would think that such a sobbering history would heal us from delusions of having any forms of inherent rights to the land. You would be wrong. I can't for the life of me explain how come.