When Cops Are Indistinguishable From Criminals

[Shadow Wolf]

And another reason why the system is broken, not the officers:

The cops are broken as well. A black lady I know in Indiana, she was told by some pigs who pulled her over "get out of the car, ******." The judge didnt like hearing that.

 

[oldbadger]

I didn't say it was. In fact, that case is so convoluted that it is hard to pin the blame and find the sentence. It is only clear that no sentence would be a grave injustice.

Sure. It seems that we are in some kind of contentious agreement here.
But the officers were shot at and thought that they could die.
The fact that they shot seven bullets (?) in to Miss Walker could only show how unbalanced, poorly prepared, poorly equipped and badly led they were.

Any sentence should be a demand for changes, maybe?

Yep. But not in the US.

That's redirection, surely?
This happened in a US State.
I'm not going to look somewhere else in connection with Miss Walker's death.

It hasn't been mentioned in the discussion, yet. And yes, police officers are under stress and that stress is mostly home grown. Officers are made to fear the public in their training and those who can't cope with the stress are hired anyway or if they develop symptoms later are kept working instead of send to a psychiatrist.

Every serving law enforcement officer should undergo psycho-therapy and counselling regularly.
These officers probably were not wearing body armour (I'm guessing).
Did they knock and call out first? They say that they did.

An officer who snaps under stress can't be made responsible -

Good! See? That's an acquittal of any crime, right there. It's the system that needs to be tried, I reckon.
Oh! And America could do with less fast-fire guns in civilian hands. That could help. Maybe?

but his commanding officer can. When you send out an unstable individual, you are responsible for everything that individual does.

By all means sack the bosses. But put them in prison? Every time their force messes up? All your bosses would be in the nick.

In short: a person is dead, somebody has to pay for that. If that doesn't happen people will sense that the law isn't working properly. And that will make them disregard the law themselves.

Well, the people are probably right. The law is not working properly.
No auto retraining and reviews.
No trauma counselling and therapy.
Guns everywhere.
Stupid drugs laws.
Bad property search techniques.
Body armour?
....it goes on.....

The people are probably right. But don't appease the people by sticking officers in prison who didn't want that incident to happen, is my guess.

 

[oldbadger]

And another reason why the system is broken, not the officers:

Exactly!
Hence, this helps to acquit those who do shoot in error.

 

[Heyo]

The cops are broken as well. A black lady I know in Indiana, she was told by some pigs who pulled her over "get out of the car, ******." The judge didnt like hearing that.

Well, the system is ultimately responsible that those kinds of officers are hired in the first place.

 

[Heyo]

Exactly!
Hence, this helps to acquit those who do shoot in error.

Only partially. I accept extreme distress as an excuse for a faulty decision but I think almost every officer has a moment of clarity (most likely before s/he ever joined the force) where they were not mentally so unstable that they weren't responsible for their actions. Those moments of clarity are the ones were they decide to join or stay on the force and tow the blue line.

 

[oldbadger]

Only partially. I accept extreme distress as an excuse for a faulty decision but I think almost every officer has a moment of clarity (most likely before s/he ever joined the force) where they were not mentally so unstable that they weren't responsible for their actions. Those moments of clarity are the ones were they decide to join or stay on the force and tow the blue line.

Yes...... yes, absolutely.
And then, after days, weeks, months or years' of tension, stress and traumas they need help to re-balance them.

I'll bet that they don't get it.

And they need training reviews.
And system reviews.
etc.

One of the 1st crashes that happens is just after induction training, when the prepared, tested and ready recruit goes out for field training....... guess what happens...... an old dog copper with year's of trauma, stress, prejudice and bad mind gets hold of that new recruit and tells him/her 'Right! This is the real World! 1st rule is, 'Forget everything those idiots at the induction course told you! You're training starts now!'
......... the rot starts from very early on. All field training officers need to be trained and tested..... and reviewed..... in field training!

 

[Revoltingest]

What is your definition of murder?
What is your definition of manslaughter?
What is your definition of dreadful accident?

That's the legal definition I want....... not your idea, ok?

I used "murder" in a loose rather than legal sense.

About your description of this one incident......
The 'cops' are briefed on a job before they go. And because they work in America they can expect any property to have lots of guns. If somebody starts trying to kill them on entry it can affect their immediate viewpoint............. so the worst accusation against them could be manslaughter, I reckon.

I know this incident was very bad, but your 'cops' face death-on-duty every day and this builds up in to trauma which your country doesn't seem to recognise or provide for. You want perfect decisions from people doing a job (all the time in danger) and your opinion of that performance will always be decided in your armchair with 20-20 vision.

None of those law enforcers, police, sheriffs, whoever, murdered anybody in that home entry, Revolting.

You & another ferriner believe that because we have guns, cops should
fear for their lives in any encounter. But their jobs (as I've ofte pointed out)
are less dangerous than even landscapers. You should also note that
violently breaking into someone's home without identifying themselves as
cops invites armed defense. Another problem is that they do this with
often bad info, & regularly even get the address wrong.

To call forensic examination of police behavior mere armchair analysis
really doesn't apply. Is this tacit approval of the break-in & killing?
Their actions, particularly wrongful must be judged. For too long,
they've been given a pass on so many abuses. And we see the
results playing out.
There must be a better way than treating us all as enemy combatants.

 

[oldbadger]

I used "murder" in a loose rather than legal sense.

You & another ferriner believe that because we have guns, cops should
fear for their lives in any encounter. But their jobs (as I've ofte pointed out)
are less dangerous than even landscapers. You should also note that
violently breaking into someone's home without identifying themselves as
cops invites armed defense. Another problem is that they do this with
often bad info, & regularly even get the address wrong.

To call forensic examination of police behavior mere armchair analysis
really doesn't apply. Is this tacit approval of the break-in & killing?
Their actions, particularly wrongful must be judged. For too long,
they've been given a pass on so many abuses. And we see the
results playing out.
There must be a better way than treating us all as enemy combatants.

Where have you been? Lazing and counting all your wealth while this thread goes nuclear?

Your cops training gets spoiled as soon as they enter field training (I reckon).
Drugs laws are mostly rubbish. If they didn't exist you'd have lots of tax-money to spend on aircraft carriers or summin'. And far less bust-ins.
Plain cloth cops should not be allowed to do sudden entries.
Body armour can reduce injuries and reduce op stresses.
Racing in to places to stop drugs being flushed etc is stupid.

Oh..... the whole thing is a mess...... but those cops saw a mate shot down, and they were frightened, and whatever happens to them they ain't murderers, is all I', saying.

And don't pretend you're a hero 'cos you do the odd bit of landscapin'........ I collect oysters on the foreshore..... deadly... them oysters.

 

[Stevicus]

Where have you been? Lazing and counting all your wealth while this thread goes nuclear?

I find that threads can often go nuclear, usually caused by people in other time zones while we're sleeping here in America. But I'm an early riser, usually getting up around 4 or 5.

 

[Revoltingest]

Where have you been? Lazing and counting all your wealth while this thread goes nuclear?

I occasionally sleep for 8 hours or so, & just awoke.
I haven't even looked at this thread yet....I've been answering the alerts.

Your cops training gets spoiled as soon as they enter field training (I reckon).
Drugs laws are mostly rubbish. If they didn't exist you'd have lots of tax-money to spend on aircraft carriers or summin'. And far less bust-ins.
Plain cloth cops should not be allowed to do sudden entries.
Body armour can reduce injuries and reduce op stresses.
Racing in to places to stop drugs being flushed etc is stupid.

Oh..... the whole thing is a mess...... but those cops saw a mate shot down, and they were frightened, and whatever happens to them they ain't murderers, is all I', saying.

You raise an interesting question....
Let's say a government employee does the job as ordered.
But the order has the obvious consequence of likely shooting innocents.
They proceed anyway, eschewing a safer approach.
An innocent dies.
Is it not murder simply because it's done under color of authority?
Is it a crime to defend oneself against an armed intruder bent on mahyem,
simply because the perps were following government orders?

And don't pretend you're a hero 'cos you do the odd bit of landscapin'........ I collect oysters on the foreshore..... deadly... them oysters.

"Hero"....I loathe that word.
So pretentious...so over-used.
But we landscapers are the mighty glue that holds western civilization together.
You may thank me for my service.

 

[Revoltingest]

Where have you been? Lazing and counting all your wealth while this thread goes nuclear?

OK....I read over the whole thread.
Nuclear?
Hah!
It's been rather tame while I was snoozing.

 

[Heyo]

OK....I read over the whole thread.
Nuclear?
Hah!
It's been rather tame while I was snoozing.

I just had a little chat with the old badger. We even came to something like a conclusion. I don't call that "nuclear".

 

[oldbadger]

I find that threads can often go nuclear, usually caused by people in other time zones while we're sleeping here in America. But I'm an early riser, usually getting up around 4 or 5.

Where are you?
I'm in England.

 

[oldbadger]

I occasionally sleep for 8 hours or so, & just awoke.
I haven't even looked at this thread yet....I've been answering the alerts.

You raise an interesting question....
Let's say a government employee does the job as ordered.
But the order has the obvious consequence of likely shooting innocents.
They proceed anyway, eschewing a safer approach.
An innocent dies.
Is it not murder simply because it's done under color of authority?
Is it a crime to defend oneself against an armed intruder bent on mahyem,
simply because the perps were following government orders?

"Hero"....I loathe that word.
So pretentious...so over-used.
But we landscapers are the mighty glue that holds western civilization together.
You may thank me for my service.

Orders rarely do have obvious consequences.
Those cops probably expected to be home and dinner after writing up their statements n stuff.

 

[oldbadger]

I just had a little chat with the old badger. We even came to something like a conclusion. I don't call that "nuclear".

Heh heh!
I was ribbing Revolting for not being around. I assumed he had been up for hours.
They got funny time.....

 

[Stevicus]

Where are you?
I'm in England.

I'm in Arizona, where it's much much too hot in the summer.

My flag avatar is a big giveaway.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The people are probably right. But don't appease the people by sticking officers in prison who didn't want that incident to happen, is my guess.

The problem is so severe in America that cops who help cover stuff up by inaction need punished. This includes thise who don't want these incidents to happen, but stand by in silence and they side with the badge rather than their fellow citizens. The know the rabid animals are on the loose, they see them, they know the rabid ones, but they say nothing and the rabid pigs go abuse and kill instead of being stopped early. Something had happens, theyvstand by the rabid pigs with their inaction and silence.

 

[Wandering Monk]

When people say "We want law and order" it is inevitable that you get guys like Derek Chauvin, who say "Yes, sir" while salivating at the prospect of enforcing his own version of law and order.

Minneapolis has one of the lowest percentage of police living in the community they serve in the entire country.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Why are we assuming that the cops in that case weren't doing what they were told to do? It's quite possible that they were acting by the book, and the book just happened to be terrible and not very good at dealing with situations like this.

The ordinances for use of choke holds in Minneapolis say that it is only for active resisters.

George Floyd ceased to be an active resister when he was cuffed and on the ground. What possible reason could this bad cop have for 8 minutes of knee on neck? Anyway, just watch this cops face during the entire 8 minutes. There is something very not right with this man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why are we assuming that the cops in that case weren't doing what they were told to do? It's quite possible that they were acting by the book, and the book just happened to be terrible and not very good at dealing with situations like this.

I am willing to stake my reputation he was not acting by the book, as what he did (in particular in the area of the neck and major arteries) is incredibly dangerous, with holds of lesser force to that area being prohibited by many books. It's very possible piggly-wiggly could have snapped George Floyd's neck doing that, and his death then would have been gruesome (nothing like the quick snap-dead of Hollywood). It was excessive, it was brutal and barbaric, and anyone with a remedial knowledge of human anatomy and/or self defense knows what the pig did was both deliberate and wrong. It's very unlikely he was trained to do that.