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When Did Our Spirit Enter The Enbryo Or Fetus Thus Creating A Living SouL

Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
columbus said:
I see nothing in that scripture suggesting that trimester is special. Would you please point it out?
Tom
ETA I think humans begin at conception and proceed until death
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Norman: Hi Tom, I just quoted the scriptures to point out my belief that we have a spirit that our physical bodies house. I just wondered what other people thought when our spirit
enters the embryo or fetus to create a living soul. However, if someone does not believe that we are a spirit first, secondly a physical body then my question probably would not
concern that person. It has been a question of mine for along time and my answer certainly can be wrong. Thank you for your response.
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
Carlita said:
Biblical terms, I see the spirit going into a person when they are first created. I mirror it to Adam who God "breathed in Him" life (or spirit) the moment he was created. That is in Genesis 2:7.

This is what I believe: We were not "given" a spirit; we already have a spirit. It is a part of us, body, spirit, and mind. Why do we make things so complicated?
Click to expand...

Norman: Hi Carlita, it is a complicated question even for myself, I always wondered when our spirit enters the embryo or fetus to create a living soul. I posted the chart for
others to look at and give there opinion or belief as to when this happens. I do believe as you stated that we have a spirit, however, I believe that our spirits were created
by God. Thank you for your response.
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
outhouse said:
Souls do not exist. They never enter anything. It is a concept born in mythology and has never LEFT mythology.


This was ancient ignorant mens attempts to explain the conscious mind they knew nothing about.

SO we do know that no soul enters a body at any time.

Norman: aside from sperm and an egg, what do you believe gives that physical body life?

BUT factually your conscious mind develops in the embryo as it grows and cells multiply.

Norman: Hi outhouse, this response answers my original OP. Thank you

YOU do not have to like or accept the truth.




It pre exist in mythology.

Norman: ok, you don't believe in a preexistent spirit?


Because they don't define the natural world, many just argue with factual science. And of course no one in a religion will agree on this mythology.

With nothing there they are debating imagination. Similar to what your thread here is doing.
Click to expand...

Norman: Why do you feel that my question is debating imagination? I showed the chart for a reason so others can look at it and understand the question
that I was asking. I can only guess myself and my answer could definitely be wrong.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Science says what?
Science seems to be the new religion, scientists its bishops, experts its canons and consultants its clergy. :p
Science says............. so it must be true! The new Truth-Pill.
Unless, of course, it says something that folks don't like.....
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
oldbadger said:
Science says what?
Science seems to be the new religion, scientists its bishops, experts its canons and consultants its clergy. :p
Science says............. so it must be true! The new Truth-Pill.
Unless, of course, it says something that folks don't like.....
Click to expand...

Not one article above explains anything more then a guess by Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose, and is heavily criticized and is not even a credible hypothesis at this time. It is not peer reviewed, and they admit their guessing by attaching their guess to unknown quantum mechanics.

Lawrence Kruass is strictly opposed
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Norman said:
Norman: Why do you feel that my question is debating imagination?
Click to expand...

You had asked our opinion, that was mine.

When there is evidence put forth in support, an actual hypothesis, I would love to debate it with you. But at this time there is no data to debate.
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
outhouse said:
You had asked our opinion, that was mine.

When there is evidence put forth in support, an actual hypothesis, I would love to debate it with you. But at this time there is no data to debate.
Click to expand...

Norman: Hi outhouse, thank you for your opinion, however, the hypothesis was the chart that I posted. The chart shows the cycles of birth, that is factual unless you
can come up with a better chart, however, you won't find one. What more evidence do you want? There is a scientific and spiritual realm to this chart. If this is your
final answer, then we will leave it at that. oldbager in post #24 gave some real interesting information, I see that you did not embrace the information, however, your
dispute of these men is simply your opinion, how can you prove it wrong?
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
Nietzsche said:
Yeeeeah, sorry, no. Consciousness is the important factor. There are plenty of fertilized human eggs that never make it term because of some small problem or another, but we don't count those in death statistics do we? No, we don't, because they don't matter. If you don't have independent brain function, you're an organ farm at best and a piece of meat that can function as only the slimmest facsimile of a human-being at worst.

We only separate brain-death from, you know, death-death because we're slowly making mortality our *****. No higher-order function, no personhood.
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Norman: Hi Nietzsche, do you believe that our physical bodies are housed with a spirit? If so, where in the chart do you believe the spirit enters;? and thus creates a
living soul
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
Sunstone said:
The notion of a soul is a failed hypothesis.
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Norman: Hi Sunstone, so you do not believe that our physical bodies house a spirit? Are you coming from a scientific view on this answer? Thank you for
responding to my post.
 
N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Norman said:
Norman: Hi Nietzsche, do you believe that our physical bodies are housed with a spirit? If so, where in the chart do you believe the spirit enters;? and thus creates a
living soul
Click to expand...
Not a clue, and I don't particularly care. You can have as strong a "spirit" or "soul" as you want, but if you're not thinking it doesn't matter. No ability to communicate with the outside world? The best thing we can do for you is to end your suffering as swiftly as possible and get your organs to people who actually have lives they can live. Too many people die because organ donation is an opt-in rather than opt-out system.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Norman said:
Norman: Hi outhouse, thank you for your opinion, however, the hypothesis was the chart that I posted. The chart shows the cycles of birth, that is factual unless you
can come up with a better chart, however, you won't find one.
Click to expand...

Your welcome brother.

The part showing fetus growth is factual.

Norman said:
What more evidence do you want?
Click to expand...

Something that can be confirmed or studied or observed.

Norman said:
oldbager in post #24 gave some real interesting information, I see that you did not embrace the information, however, your
dispute of these men is simply your opinion, how can you prove it wrong?
Click to expand...

Interesting yes. There was not enough information to embrace, and the titles were very misleading.


They did not state anything that can be proven or proven wrong. All of their research goes into an area beyond what is known via quantum mechanics.


After reading each one, did you find anything conclusive you could agree to?
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
outhouse said:
Not one article above explains anything more then a guess by Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose, and is heavily criticized and is not even a credible hypothesis at this time. It is not peer reviewed, and they admit their guessing by attaching their guess to unknown quantum mechanics.

Lawrence Kruass is strictly opposed
Click to expand...

Guess? Yes!

Heavily criticised? Yes......... but I recognise that many outstanding 'breakthroughs' in knowledge and research have been heavily ctiticised...... it's just that people delude themselves later on by forgetting ...... and can even decide that they supported knew results 'from the start'. We are very good at that.

Credible Hypothesis? This comes straight out of your knew 'Science is God' prayer-book. 'Oh Lord, may I receive the wisdom of 'Credible Hypothesis' and may I turn my eyes away from that which offends the common consensus of Scientists.

Peer Reviewed? Oh Lord even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of extreme ignorance, Theism, and especially oldbadger, I shall fear no idiots's and fool's ideas. For my Peer Reviews and my Degree (if I have one) will comfort me, all the days of my life.

:p
 
JRMcC

JRMcC

Active Member
Norman said:
Norman: Hi JRMcC, Why don't you believe in a Soul?
Click to expand...

Hi Norman, thanks for your question. My opinion very well may change someday, but at this time science is providing the most convincing answers to questions like "what is life" "where did it come from" ect. It seems that the traditional model of human soul vs. the material can't hold up anymore, because we now know that changes in your brain mean changes in your behavior and who you are. If there's no brain, there's no you.
You and I both know that each human being has something infinitely valuable, beautiful and sacred. I guess the difference between us is that I think it arises from physical processes in the brain and you don't. Echoing what someone else said earlier, consciousness is what really makes you who you are, and consciousness changes develops over time. The idea that one's consciousness or personhood started at any one moment is an unintelligible one to me. I'll stop there for now, I don't have too much more to say. :)
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
JRMcC said:
Hi Norman, thanks for your question. My opinion very well may change someday, but at this time science is providing the most convincing answers to questions like "what is life" "where did it come from" ect. It seems that the traditional model of human soul vs. the material can't hold up anymore, because we now know that changes in your brain mean changes in your behavior and who you are. If there's no brain, there's no you.
You and I both know that each human being has something infinitely valuable, beautiful and sacred. I guess the difference between us is that I think it arises from physical processes in the brain and you don't. Echoing what someone else said earlier, consciousness is what really makes you who you are, and consciousness changes develops over time. The idea that one's consciousness or personhood started at any one moment is an unintelligible one to me. I'll stop there for now, I don't have too much more to say. :)
Click to expand...

Norman: Hi JRMcC, thank you for your answer, very good explanation.
 
Norman

Norman

Defender of Truth
outhouse said:
Your welcome brother.

The part showing fetus growth is factual.



Something that can be confirmed or studied or observed.



Interesting yes. There was not enough information to embrace, and the titles were very misleading.


They did not state anything that can be proven or proven wrong. All of their research goes into an area beyond what is known via quantum mechanics.


After reading each one, did you find anything conclusive you could agree to?
Click to expand...

Norman: Hi outhouse, I actually had a hard time following it myself. Thank you for your response to this thread. Talk to ya soon. :)
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
columbus said:
I see nothing in that scripture suggesting that trimester is special. Would you please point it out?
Tom
ETA I think humans begin at conception and proceed until death
Click to expand...
Is it not human before conception?
And if not, what is it before conception?
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Saint Frankenstein said:
Any way, I believe life starts at conception.
Click to expand...
Can you be more specific?

I ask becuase it takes a "living" sperm to fertilize a "living" egg.
If the sperm is dead, there is no conception.
If the egg is dead there is no conception.

So stating that life "begins" at conception is rather fuzzy.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Norman said:
Below is the Andrew Carnegie's Chart, I have broken it down for convenience for others. My question is where do you believe the spirit entered the fetus or embryo and thus a living soul started?. I believe the spirit entered in the first trimester at "stage 20, Spontaneous Movement." (Fetus). I believe that scripture shows that we lived as spirits before entering our bodies. I quote scripture below to sustain my decision. What do you believe or think?

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord‍ came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed‍ thee in the belly I knew‍ thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified‍ thee, and‍ I ordained‍ thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am‍ a child.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers‍ of our flesh which corrected us,‍ and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection‍ unto the Father‍ of spirits, and live?

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord‍ for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit‍ of man within him.

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust‍ return to the earth as it was: and the spirit‍ shall return unto God who gave‍ it.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God‍ of the spirits‍ of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Job 32:8 But there is‍ a spirit‍ in man: and the inspiration‍ of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness‍ with our spirit, that we are the children‍ of God:

Stage 1 Fertilization, Stage 2 Cleavage, Stage 3 Early Blastocyst, Stage 4 Implantation, Stage 5 Implantation Completed, Stage 6 Gastrulation, Stage 7 Neurulation, Stage 8 Primitive Pit, Stage 9 First Somites, Stage 10 Neural Folds Heart Beat, Stage 11 First Trimester, Stage 12 Upper Limb Buds, Stage 13 First Layer Skin, Stage 14 Esophagus Forming, Stage 15 Cerebral Hemispheres, Stage 16 Hindbrain Developing, Stage 17 Primitive Germ Cells, Stage 18 Kidneys Produce Urin, Stage 20 Spontaneous Movement, Stage 22 Brain Can Move Muscles, Stage 23 End of Forming Embryonic Development, Second Trimester, Stage 14 Sexual Organs Now Clearly Visible, Third Trimester, Stage 24 Sensory Brain Waves Begin To Activate, Weeks 40 Stage 40 Baby Full Term

View attachment 8570

This is the chart that I used for this question.

I am sorry everyone, I forgot to list the website where this chart is at
Visible Embryo Home Page
Click to expand...
You will need to define both "spirit" and "soul"
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
oldbadger said:
Science says what?
Science seems to be the new religion, scientists its bishops, experts its canons and consultants its clergy. :p
Science says............. so it must be true! The new Truth-Pill.
Unless, of course, it says something that folks don't like.....
Click to expand...
You are going to have to highlight the scientific evidence you claim is in the linked webpages.
 
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