When Did Our Spirit Enter The Enbryo Or Fetus Thus Creating A Living SouL

[NulliuSINverba]

Norman: Hi NuliuSINverba, the only evidence is in the scriptures and what I believe.

Are the scriptures the claim or the evidence? If they're the claim, then to restate the claim and submit it as evidence appears to be rather circular, doesn't it? If the scriptures are the evidence, what's the claim?

I am not saying my answer is the right one.

How refreshing.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't understand where the idea that a soul gets inserted at some arbitrary point in development comes from.
I do believe that there is more to living things than we can understand at this time. But the idea that it "materializes" suddenly seems bizarre.
Tom

Well the op has it pegged at the embryo/fetus stage.

 

[columbus]

Well the op has it pegged at the embryo/fetus stage.

I know.
I see a difference between humans worms and rocks. I can't explain what it is exactly. But then, nobody can explain sentience either. A few centuries ago metabolism was a mystery.
I believe that there is far more to be known about the human situation and experience than we currently do, or even can.
Tom

 

[Valjean]

Not all religions posit fully formed, individual souls lodging in individual bodies.
A Vedantic perspective (just to shake things up here):

There is only a single Consciousness permeating the Universe. The same Universal Soul is tapped into by everyone and everything. Like a bulb under a colander, it's the same light peeping out in all directions from a billion eyes.

No specific point where contact's made and channeling begins. It's a continuum. Degree of sentience varies. It trickles into an ant and floods into a human. The enlightened are immersed and dissolve into it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My question is where do you believe the spirit entered the fetus or embryo and thus a living soul started?

If we are going by Bible stuff, it doesn't, though this is beside the point when we are talking about abortion. The Bible provides no literal support for believing that Children pre-exist. It is instead the opposite, and belief in pre-existence is an innovative view, perhaps one that is informed through later revelation to you? I also think that while killing the unborn is not good, it is nevertheless (in the Bible) up to the parents. Rarely there are exceptional children born with the spirit of wisdom. Moses is one. Jeremiah is another, yet there is no penalty for a mother killing her own child.

In the Bible every creature breathes air when its first born, and this is the breath of life that makes it a soul. In addition a child grows in wisdom through conversation with others who have the spirit of wisdom and through study and other things. They breathe in the air that the wise person is breathing out, or if you want it put more directly they listen and learn and repeat. Until they are of age they actually don't have the 'Spirit' as much as someone who is an adult. This seems to correlate with the reduced fines for accidentally killing a child versus killing an adult man. So children don't come out of the womb with a spirit of wisdom. Rarely there are exceptions mentioned. Jeremiah is an exception as are Samuel, John the Baptist and Jesus. Each of these prophets receive the spirit of wisdom when they are young. If these aren't exceptional, then for no apparent reason the Bible has gone out of its way to say that they are.

I have never read a Bible story in which a mother was penalized for killing her own child or where the life of a child was enshrined as irreplaceable. Instead a real mother and loving father are the things that protect children. A real mother normally loves her child and won't allow it to be killed, and if she does kill her own child there doesn't appear to be a penalty. In Genesis Abraham is commanded to kill his own son and apparently is within his rights to do so. Moses children are to be killed simply because they're not circumcised. David's infant son is killed just because of something David has done wrong! The infant though guilty of nothing is nevertheless put to death.

 

[Norman]

Are the scriptures the claim or the evidence? If they're the claim, then to restate the claim and submit it as evidence appears to be rather circular, doesn't it? If the scriptures are the evidence, what's the claim?



How refreshing.

Norman: This is very simple, look at the chart and tell me when you believe our spirit enters the embryo or fetus and thus creating a living soul. No circular reasoning here, I listed scripture
passages to show my belief that our spirit houses our physical bodies. If you don't believe that we have a spirit then you simply need not respond. If you want a definition of a "soul" or "spirit'
you can go to any on line dictionaries and get the meaning.

 

[Norman]

Notice the italics. "..."

It's pointing out the source of what people recognize as a spirit comes from nowhere else but within one's own thoughts.

Norman: Hi Nowhere Man, I am sure some people believe that, however, I don't believe that all people believe that. If that is your response to my OP then thank you. I
understand what you are trying to say now.

 

[Norman]

If we are going by Bible stuff, it doesn't, though this is beside the point when we are talking about abortion. The Bible provides no literal support for believing that Children pre-exist. It is instead the opposite, and belief in pre-existence is an innovative view, perhaps one that is informed through later revelation to you? I also think that while killing the unborn is not good, it is nevertheless (in the Bible) up to the parents. Rarely there are exceptional children born with the spirit of wisdom. Moses is one. Jeremiah is another, yet there is no penalty for a mother killing her own child.

In the Bible every creature breathes air when its first born, and this is the breath of life that makes it a soul. In addition a child grows in wisdom through conversation with others who have the spirit of wisdom and through study and other things. They breathe in the air that the wise person is breathing out, or if you want it put more directly they listen and learn and repeat. Until they are of age they actually don't have the 'Spirit' as much as someone who is an adult. This seems to correlate with the reduced fines for accidentally killing a child versus killing an adult man. So children don't come out of the womb with a spirit of wisdom. Rarely there are exceptions mentioned. Jeremiah is an exception as are Samuel, John the Baptist and Jesus. Each of these prophets receive the spirit of wisdom when they are young. If these aren't exceptional, then for no apparent reason the Bible has gone out of its way to say that they are.

I have never read a Bible story in which a mother was penalized for killing her own child or where the life of a child was enshrined as irreplaceable. Instead a real mother and loving father are the things that protect children. A real mother normally loves her child and won't allow it to be killed, and if she does kill her own child there doesn't appear to be a penalty. In Genesis Abraham is commanded to kill his own son and apparently is within his rights to do so. Moses children are to be killed simply because they're not circumcised. David's infant son is killed just because of something David has done wrong! The infant though guilty of nothing is nevertheless put to death.

Norman: Hi Brickjectivity, I understand your answer above about the scriptures. My OP was not about abortion, the question was simply when does our spirit enter the embryo or fetus, you answered that question. The rest of the information you gave is informational and I appreciate your effort providing this. Than you for your response.

 

[Norman]

If the soul or spirit is eternal, not only it wouldn’t have an end, but also no beginning. Eternity goes both directions. Which brings me to another question. Where were we before we were born?

Norman: Hi roger, good question, I believe our spirits were created by our Heavenly Father, when and how that was done, I do not know. Then we came to earth
to receive a physical body just like Jesus did. As Jesus died and he said he commended his spirit to his father and three days later he was resurrected, his spirit
being reunited again with his physical body. Because of that we all will be resurrected both evil and good people. That is what I believe and you may not believe in
this, I do not know? Yes, we are eternal beings and this life is a proving ground for us do to those things that we feel is right. I believe in letting men worship according
to the dictate of there own conscious, let them worship who, how, what and where they may.

 

[Sapiens]

Norman: Hi Sapiens, you did not list your source for your information, by any chance is this website where you received your information from?
Spontaneous abortion in humans - RationalWiki

Many different sources, that may well have been one of them.

 

[Norman]

Many different sources, that may well have been one of them.

Norman: Hi Sapiens, thank you and thank you for your response to my OP

 

[columbus]

I believe the spirit entered in the first trimester at "stage 20, Spontaneous Movement." (Fetus).

Why at this particular point? Why do you think spirit "enters", as opposed to being a part of every living creature going back to the beginning of life?
Or even before that?
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know I answered this question. I was just re-reading it. A brief answer, from the moment of conception. When sperm and egg forms its first stage (or level) is when the baby has a spirit. It's proven by the spontaneous growing provided from many different forces that make up a person and external elements like fluid and nutrients all support the baby as it grows in its mothers womb.

So, the child's spirit isn't dormant until they hit stage 20. That is probably why they have these abortion rights. Life starts at the moment of conception. It may not look like life to a Christian, but I am sure as God blew life into Adam and Eve, it sure looked like life to Him.

Below is the Andrew Carnegie's Chart, I have broken it down for convenience for others. My question is where do you believe the spirit entered the fetus or embryo and thus a living soul started?. I believe the spirit entered in the first trimester at "stage 20, Spontaneous Movement." (Fetus). I believe that scripture shows that we lived as spirits before entering our bodies. I quote scripture below to sustain my decision. What do you believe or think?

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord‍ came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed‍ thee in the belly I knew‍ thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified‍ thee, and‍ I ordained‍ thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am‍ a child.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers‍ of our flesh which corrected us,‍ and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection‍ unto the Father‍ of spirits, and live?

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord‍ for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit‍ of man within him.

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust‍ return to the earth as it was: and the spirit‍ shall return unto God who gave‍ it.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God‍ of the spirits‍ of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Job 32:8 But there is‍ a spirit‍ in man: and the inspiration‍ of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness‍ with our spirit, that we are the children‍ of God:

Stage 1 Fertilization, Stage 2 Cleavage, Stage 3 Early Blastocyst, Stage 4 Implantation, Stage 5 Implantation Completed, Stage 6 Gastrulation, Stage 7 Neurulation, Stage 8 Primitive Pit, Stage 9 First Somites, Stage 10 Neural Folds Heart Beat, Stage 11 First Trimester, Stage 12 Upper Limb Buds, Stage 13 First Layer Skin, Stage 14 Esophagus Forming, Stage 15 Cerebral Hemispheres, Stage 16 Hindbrain Developing, Stage 17 Primitive Germ Cells, Stage 18 Kidneys Produce Urin, Stage 20 Spontaneous Movement, Stage 22 Brain Can Move Muscles, Stage 23 End of Forming Embryonic Development, Second Trimester, Stage 14 Sexual Organs Now Clearly Visible, Third Trimester, Stage 24 Sensory Brain Waves Begin To Activate, Weeks 40 Stage 40 Baby Full Term

View attachment 8570

This is the chart that I used for this question.

I am sorry everyone, I forgot to list the website where this chart is at
Visible Embryo Home Page

 

[Bird123]

Below is the Andrew Carnegie's Chart, I have broken it down for convenience for others. My question is where do you believe the spirit entered the fetus or embryo and thus a living soul started?. I believe the spirit entered in the first trimester at "stage 20, Spontaneous Movement." (Fetus). I believe that scripture shows that we lived as spirits before entering our bodies. I quote scripture below to sustain my decision. What do you believe or think?

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord‍ came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed‍ thee in the belly I knew‍ thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified‍ thee, and‍ I ordained‍ thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am‍ a child.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers‍ of our flesh which corrected us,‍ and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection‍ unto the Father‍ of spirits, and live?

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord‍ for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit‍ of man within him.

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust‍ return to the earth as it was: and the spirit‍ shall return unto God who gave‍ it.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God‍ of the spirits‍ of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Job 32:8 But there is‍ a spirit‍ in man: and the inspiration‍ of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness‍ with our spirit, that we are the children‍ of God:

Stage 1 Fertilization, Stage 2 Cleavage, Stage 3 Early Blastocyst, Stage 4 Implantation, Stage 5 Implantation Completed, Stage 6 Gastrulation, Stage 7 Neurulation, Stage 8 Primitive Pit, Stage 9 First Somites, Stage 10 Neural Folds Heart Beat, Stage 11 First Trimester, Stage 12 Upper Limb Buds, Stage 13 First Layer Skin, Stage 14 Esophagus Forming, Stage 15 Cerebral Hemispheres, Stage 16 Hindbrain Developing, Stage 17 Primitive Germ Cells, Stage 18 Kidneys Produce Urin, Stage 20 Spontaneous Movement, Stage 22 Brain Can Move Muscles, Stage 23 End of Forming Embryonic Development, Second Trimester, Stage 14 Sexual Organs Now Clearly Visible, Third Trimester, Stage 24 Sensory Brain Waves Begin To Activate, Weeks 40 Stage 40 Baby Full Term

View attachment 8570

This is the chart that I used for this question.

I am sorry everyone, I forgot to list the website where this chart is at
Visible Embryo Home Page

We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. Our physical bodies are our transportation in this physical world. The term soul does not do justice to reality. We are installed after birth at the point the physical body is developed enough to handle memories to a nominal degree. The connections between who we are and our physical bodies are made in the brain.

Is there any proof to this?? Sure, if you personally and privately ask enough people, you will discover those who remember the installation.

OK, everyone. Think back to the very first thing you remember. Hmmm? What was it?

 

[columbus]

We are installed after birth at the point the physical body is developed enough to handle memories to a nominal degree.

Why do you believe this?
Why do you believe that we are installed after birth?
Tom

 

[atpollard]

The notion of a soul is a failed hypothesis.

Until I visited this website, I would have strongly disagreed.
Now I am less sure that everyone has a soul (or a mind for that matter)

Soul begins at conception.

 

[columbus]

Soul begins at conception.

Why do you believe this?
Why do you think souls suddenly appear at conception?

Tom

 

[Valjean]

What is the significance of ensoulment?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Norman: This is very simple, look at the chart and tell me when you believe our spirit enters the embryo or fetus and thus creating a living soul. No circular reasoning here, I listed scripture
passages to show my belief that our spirit houses our physical bodies.

Actually, the scriptures represent someone else's belief that you've adopted as your own, correct? And isn't it supposed to be the other way 'round? Aren't our bodies supposed to house our spirits?

If you don't believe that we have a spirit then you simply need not respond.

I think it's fair to ask you to demonstrate the existence of the "spirit" or "soul" before I answer your question. Which might mean that I'll never be obliged to answer your question. We'll see.

If you want a definition of a "soul" or "spirit' you can go to any on line dictionaries and get the meaning.

I see that Merriam-Webster offers a definition of "leprechaun" as well. So leprechauns must also be real, correct?

 

[Bird123]

I know because I have lived it and remember.