When does one acquire consciousness

[Twilight Hue]

A paramecium is conscious?

Yep. It's living matter.

 

[Heyo]

Yep. It's living matter.

So, by your definition, "conscious" is synonymous with "alive"?
Are you dead when you are unconscious?

 

[Twilight Hue]

So, by your definition, "conscious" is synonymous with "alive"?
Are you dead when you are unconscious?

Depends if your sleeping or actually dead. You simply go offline when your sleeping but you are still conscious.

 

[Audie]

My experiences.

Right

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Right

So what is consciousness to you?

 

[Heyo]

Depends if your sleeping or actually dead. You simply go offline when your sleeping but you are still conscious.

So, we can agree that conscious is a redundant word as it could be replaced by alive?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, we can agree that conscious is a redundant word as it could be replaced by alive?

No, not quite. At least to me.

 

[MikeF]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

You would have to specifically define what you mean by consciousness. Is it a simple on/off or true/false state, or are there levels, stages, or degrees of consciousness, or even different types or kinds of consciousness. If different kinds, how many? What properties do the different kinds share that make them all part of the category of consciousness? What distinguishes the different types?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You would have to specifically define what you mean by consciousness. Is it a simple on/off or true/false state, or are there levels, stages, or degrees of consciousness, or even different types or kinds of consciousness. If different kinds, how many? What properties do the different kinds share that make them all part of the category of consciousness? What distinguishes the different types?

Hard questions as it is subjective in some sense.

 

[MikeF]

Sure. It's made of living cells so it's definitely conscious.

Edit: disregard. this has been asked and you answered.

That would imply all organisms with living cells are conscious. Is that your intent?

 

[Fool]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

obviously there are varying levels of consciousness of some sort

How Intelligent are Microbes?


the problem?

Your baby’s brain continues to develop in the coming weeks, endowing him with a remarkable range of involuntary movements like stretching, yawning and sucking by the end of the first trimester and more coordinated movements in the second trimester.

That said, the brainstem, which controls vital functions like heart rate and breathing, isn’t mostly complete until the end of the second trimester, and the cerebral cortex doesn’t take up its duties until the third trimester.

In fact, the cerebral cortex — which is responsible for voluntary actions, thinking and feeling — only starts to work around the end of pregnancy, with simple electrical activity detectable in regions associated with senses (like touch) and motor skills in premature babies.

 

[MikeF]

I see lots of claims about fetal consciousness. How do we know that a fetus is not in a comatose state until the birthing process? There could be no self-awareness, no consciousness, simply reflexive and autonomic responses to external stimuli. Without some specific data, I do not see how one can make any claim as to the level or type of consciousness a fetus possesses in the womb.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see lots of claims about fetal consciousness. How do we know that a fetus is not in a comatose state until the birthing process? There could be no self-awareness, no consciousness, simply reflexive and autonomic responses to external stimuli. Without some specific data, I do not see how one can make any claim as to the level or type of consciousness a fetus possesses in the womb.

The problem with that approach is that a yet not born fetus right before natural birth is in this sense not different than a newly born baby.

 

[Heyo]

No, not quite. At least to me.

Neither to me. But since we don't have an "official" version, I'm prepared to agree to any definition that can get consensus. If the consensus is that there is no consciousness, that's also OK with me. We could then try to define god and hope for a similar outcome.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Neither to me. But since we don't have an "official" version, I'm prepared to agree to any definition that can get consensus. If the consensus is that there is no consciousness, that's also OK with me. We could then try to define god and hope for a similar outcome.

It is a hard one. It is connected to the Thomas Theorem as "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences." Because we have no strong only objective way of knowing, we have no way of doing it as real as with external sensory observation.

 

[MikeF]

The problem with that approach is that a yet not born fetus right before natural birth is in this sense not different than a newly born baby.

Really? And you know this how? Can you say with certainty that no change has occurred during the birthing process? We have biological processes that can change our mental state from awake and alert and and aware of our external environment, to the state of sleep. How do you know there is not a comatose state that is induced in utero? The brain of an adult can be in a comatose state as a result of injury. I do not see why something similar might be maintained in the womb.

I'm not saying this is the case by the way, I'm saying that we do not know.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Really? And you know this how? Can you say with certainty that no change has occurred during the birthing process? We have biological processes that can change our mental state from awake and alert and and aware of our external environment, to the state of sleep. How do you know there is not a comatose state that is induced in utero? The brain of an adult can be in a comatose state as a result of injury. I do not see why something similar might be maintained in the womb.

Then give evidence for that.

 

[MikeF]

Then give evidence for that.

Sorry, I edited my post as you replied. My answer is that I am not saying that this is the case, I am only saying that we do not know what the status of the fetus's level of consciousness is. You made the assertion that there was no difference between a fetus just prior to the birthing process and a post-partum infant. It would be you who would need to give evidence for that statement. I am saying that we do not know.

 

[F1fan]

What is consciousness?
Passing the mirror test? At about 20 to 24 months after birth.
Most animals don't pass the test. Exceptions are apes, cetaceans, some birds and some cats and dogs and , interestingly, ants.

Your post illustrates how vague the word "consciousness" can be. There seems to be some that think it's being awake, or some cognitive function, or neural activity, or who knows. This word can be as vague as "soul", but at least consciousness has a real set of properties that correspond to it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your post illustrates how vague the word "consciousness" can be. There seems to be some that think it's being awake, or some cognitive function, or neural activity, or who knows. This word can be as vague as "soul", but at least consciousness has a real set of properties that correspond to it.

Only a limited set of properties.