When does one acquire consciousness

[Heyo]

Your post illustrates how vague the word "consciousness" can be. There seems to be some that think it's being awake, or some cognitive function, or neural activity, or who knows. This word can be as vague as "soul", but at least consciousness has a real set of properties that correspond to it.

Only a limited set of properties.

An empty set of agreed upon properties. We have definitions that include atomic particles (the "quantum consciousness" of Deepak Chopra) and those that exclude anything and anyone that hasn't at least the thinking abilities of an averagely intelligent, adult human.

Personally I would argue for a strict definition that excludes current AI but relaxed enough to include the possibility for future AI to gain consciousness.

 

[Polymath257]

The problem is defining the concept of 'consciousness'. As we have seen, some identify consciousness and life, or even consciousness and existence.

No, a paramecium is NOT conscious in any meaningful way for this discussion.

In fetal development, the areas of the brain that mediate awareness don't develop until about the 24th week of pregnancy. The actual connections between the neurons don't develop for another week or two.

So that is the lower age for which I would consider a fetus to be 'conscious'.

The vast majority of elective abortions happen before the 12th week of pregnancy.

 

[George-ananda]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

I think that as the fetus develops, consciousness and the soul gradually start to incarnate the fetus.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That would depend on how you are defining "consciousness" and "one."

If you mean the capacity to have thoughts, emotions, feelings, personal identity, the perception of self and others, i.e. sentience, or what I view as the ego-self, then "one" would develop "consciousness" at between 24 to 28 weeks of gestation.

However, if you mean pure awareness, in my understanding, this "consciousness" is eternal. "One" experiences a life as a fetus/baby/child/adult.

It seems strange to me that you would consider the capacity for thought, etc. as consciousness itself and not as the capacity for consciousness.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Edit: disregard. this has been asked and you answered.

That would imply all organisms with living cells are conscious. Is that your intent?

Yep.

I don't see consciousness as being a single 'thing' but rather an aggregated phenomenon by which smaller living organisms can communicate and link into a larger more complex organism as a whole that can be taken online and off line via the community of cells and neurons which enables the larger organism.

 

[nPeace]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

Consciousness being a sense of awareness, would mean that consciousness is present when awareness is present.

This article says...
Abstract
A simple definition of consciousness is sensory awareness of the body, the self, and the world. The fetus may be aware of the body, for example by perceiving pain. It reacts to touch, smell, and sound, and shows facial expressions responding to external stimuli. However, these reactions are probably preprogrammed and have a subcortical nonconscious origin.

This article says...
...there is now evidence that pain does not require the cortex, subcortical structures are sufficient. These subcortical structures include the brain stem, basal ganglia, amygdala, and the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, all of which may be capable of processing pain-instigated impulses from noxious stimuli several weeks prior to the development of thalamic-cortical connections. Because subcortical processing of pain occurs without conscious intent, these impulses are, by definition, reflexes. However, not all reflexes are the same. Instigating the patellar reflex can amuse grammar school children, triggering subcortical pain processing by noxious stimulation can affect an immature human’s development.

Relying on connections to the cortex for the existence of pain is also refuted by clinical evidence in adults suggesting that neither ablation nor stimulation of the primary somatosensory cortex alters pain perception. Reliance on the cortex for pain is also disproved by infants who are either missing or have minimal cortex (anencephalic and hydranencephalic babies) who have been exposed to painful and consoling stimuli and then respond appropriately. Taken together, the findings of these studies suggest that definitions of pain which hinge on possessing a mature conscious capacity requiring cortical functioning and connectedness, are outdated.

This shows that a fetus is aware quite early - that's consciously, but we haven't even considered consciousness at a subconscious level.
Humans are subconsciously aware, even before becoming consciously aware.

For example, we sense or perceive things. That's an awareness.
No one can honestly and accurately conclude that a baby, during the first trimester, is not subconsciously aware...

We are subconsciously aware all the time, even during sleep. So to argue that a baby is asleep, and thus unconscious is not a strong argument.

Based on this information, the fetus is conscious during the first trimester.
However, this is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the fetus is a life, since consciousness does not determine life.
I know that's not the subject of the OP, but just thought it important to mention.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So, we can agree that conscious is a redundant word as it could be replaced by alive?

Not as a single organism but also the community of organisms that compromise the larger organism.

Alive seems to a multifaceted phenomenon.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No, it could be caused by, but not made of.

Cells are a component of an organism so I have to disagree with that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Cells are a component of an organism so I have to disagree with that.

Okay, we disagree.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Okay, we disagree.

It's pretty amazing stuff.

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-pr...actions-how-cells-communicate-with-each-other

 

[Nakosis]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

75yo.
Before that consciousness is just an illusion.
You spend the majority of your life faking it.
Then, just before you die, you finally wake up.

 

[dybmh]

Out of curiosity: have neither of you ever seen someone move while they were unconscious? Neither of you ever get kicked by your spouse while they're sleeping, for instance?

"Babies tend to move more at certain times of the day as they alternate between alertness and sleep. They are usually most active between 9 p.m. and 1 a.m., right as you're trying to get to sleep. This surge in activity is due to your changing blood sugar levels. Babies also can respond to sounds or touch, and may even kick your partner in the back if you snuggle too close in bed."

WebMD - Fetal Movement: Feeling the Baby Kick

 

[Subduction Zone]

With the soul threads I thought lets take a different approach.

When does one acquire consciousness?

Does a fetus/baby in the womb have any
consciousness?

For me? Usually not until 10:00 AM. I am a notoriously late riser.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Babies tend to move more at certain times of the day as they alternate between alertness and sleep. They are usually most active between 9 p.m. and 1 a.m., right as you're trying to get to sleep. This surge in activity is due to your changing blood sugar levels. Babies also can respond to sounds or touch, and may even kick your partner in the back if you snuggle too close in bed."

WebMD - Fetal Movement: Feeling the Baby Kick

Very interesting.

Feel like answering the question now?

 

[dybmh]

Very interesting.

Feel like answering the question now?

Sure I've been kicked by my spouse while she's sleeping, but that's not comparable to a baby kicking because:

"Babies tend to move more at certain times of the day as they alternate between alertness and sleep"

So the baby isn't in a deep sleep like the example you provided.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure I've been kicked by my spouse while she's sleeping, but that's not comparable to a baby kicking because:

"Babies tend to move more at certain times of the day as they alternate between alertness and sleep"

So the baby isn't in a deep sleep like the example you provided.

Do you consider a sleep that isn't a deep sleep to be:

• Conscious, or
• Unconscious

Personally, I consider someone in any stage of sleep to be unconscious. Do you agree?

 

[dybmh]

Do you consider a sleep that isn't a deep sleep to be:

• Conscious, or
• Unconscious

Personally, I consider someone in any stage of sleep to be unconscious. Do you agree?

I agree. But that doesn't matter because the baby is going from alert to sleep when it's likely to be kicking and moving.

"Babies tend to move more at certain times of the day as they alternate between alertness and sleep"

Between alertness and sleep is conscious. If it can be alert, it can be conscious.

 

[We Never Know]

You would have to specifically define what you mean by consciousness. Is it a simple on/off or true/false state, or are there levels, stages, or degrees of consciousness, or even different types or kinds of consciousness. If different kinds, how many? What properties do the different kinds share that make them all part of the category of consciousness? What distinguishes the different types?

Simply put, aware/aware of souroundings, etc

 

[We Never Know]

How does one define "consciousness" can vary.

The simplest is awareness

 

[We Never Know]

It was must be like a very slow awakening.

I think a fetus can experience discomfort when mom eats, say spicy food".