When does the body receive the soul?

[Booko]

The soul is distinctly different from spirit.

Spirit gives life, the soul is consciousness, better known as conscience.

This is what my religion teaches as well. fwiw.

 

[McBell]

who said its my declaration? Its the churches declaration, they are Gods spokesman(Lk 10:16) and they know how to interpet the word and they have been around the block for 2000 years and were founded by Jesus himself. heck there the ones that gave us the bible that you quoted. Thats longer than you or I have ever been living. So why should I trust you over Jesus church?

It is your declaration.
You declared it to RF in your post.
You then state you merely parrot what others tell you to say.
Since you have no opinions of your own post #48 why not directly quote instead of paraphrasing?


You keep presenting this Lk 10:16 as though it proves the churches position as Gods spokesman.
Perhaps you can start a new thread explaining how that verse has to be twisted and manipulated before it sounds anything of the like?

 

[waacman]

Sorry to jump back to the opening post again and re-trying to answer it, but this is a question that has always confused me, especially in light of other things that a human is born with (i.e. dichonomy, trichonomy). Recently though, I have come across a resource that has a very interesting viewpoint on what exactly the soul is. I'm not 100% sure of its correctness, but it sure makes sense when somebody points it out that we've been viewing the soul in the wrong way, and there is biblical evidence to back it up. I now view the soul as more of a conglomeration/total sum of what each human being says/does/feels/thinks about their entire lives, almost like a snapshot of one's life that is judged by God (as from God's view). The book is called Salvation of the Soul btw. Here's the link http://lampbroadcast.org/LAMPBOOK.HTM#SOTS

 

[joeboonda]

At conception. There is teaching that we are body, soul (mind, will and emotions), and spirit. We are born spiritually dead toward God, hence we must be born again, quickened, our spirit made alive when we trusted in Christ. The soul, being mind, will and emotions, is the Devil's playground, where he tries to decieve and destroy us, although he cannot undo our spiritual rebirth, he will do all he can to bring destruction into our lives through sin and make us unfruitful, and even die prematurely because of sin we allow in our lives.

 

[Super Universe]

The soul is sentient energy. It is aware of things but not wise about them. It is a fragment of God, a child of God, immortal, unless purposely destroyed by higher beings for crimes against the universe (virtually never happens).

New souls float about the universe as egg shaped forms of energy. They cannot be harmed by anything. They have free reign and can go anywhere but what do they do? They come here. They are interested in all objects but most interested in humanity.

To them we are like the best ride at a funpark where they can join with a biologic and eventually become wise about God's great and complex universe.

One problem is that old souls are stuck in a cycle. They can't break away from their selfishness so they are not allowed to ascend into the higher dimensions. They join with biologics again and again, they love material things and refuse to adopt a higher form of morality. This creates a logjam. God wants to create more children but the old souls haven't come home yet and are occupying the best lifeforms.

 

[MaddLlama]

MOD POST

Thread moved to General Religious Debates
​

 

[xexon]

The soul is the first thing to arrive, by virtue of lowering it's vibration. The other two bodies form around it. The mental body forms first, then the physical. x

 

[Scuba Pete]

You receive your soul the moment you concretize the experience of pleasure and pain into a subject. You receive your soul upon becoming aware of your own being.

So, the soul relies on sentience. I kinda like that concept. I don't believe that scriptures have a hard and fast teaching on when the soul "enters" the body. I am not sure of the importance of knowing when this event happens: just that it does is sufficient for me.

 

[athanasius]

It is your declaration.
You declared it to RF in your post.
You then state you merely parrot what others tell you to say.
Since you have no opinions of your own post #48 why not directly quote instead of paraphrasing?


You keep presenting this Lk 10:16 as though it proves the churches position as Gods spokesman.
Perhaps you can start a new thread explaining how that verse has to be twisted and manipulated before it sounds anything of the like?

Ok I will and I did only Parrot the Catholic Churches teachings that life begins at conception:

You can find "that" offical teaching here by the Pope JPII himself:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/99-02-20popetocardkeeler.htm

You also can find that the LK 10:16 passage quoted in Pope Pius XII Papal encyclical "Humani Generis" paragraph 20. He uses it to explain that the Catholic church and her magisterium is the offical teacher and interpeter of revelation that Christ gave us and how we need to listen to her.

So eat your heart out and enjoy !

 

[McBell]

Ok I will and I did only Parrot the Catholic Churches teachings that life begins at conception:

You can find "that" offical teaching here by the Pope JPII himself:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/99-02-20popetocardkeeler.htm

You also can find that the LK 10:16 passage quoted in Pope Pius XII Papal encyclical "Humani Generis" paragraph 20. He uses it to explain that the Catholic church and her magisterium is the offical teacher and interpeter of revelation that Christ gave us and how we need to listen to her.

So eat your heart out and enjoy !

You must have linked to the wrong page.
The page you linked to says absolutely NOTHING about the soul, let alone the 'official Catholic' position on when the soul enters the body.

Nice.
You want me to look up the Catholic reasoning why the Catholic church...
Can we say circular reasoning times ten?

 

[cardero]

When does the body receive the soul?
The moment the body perceives the outside world.

 

[lilithu]

When does the body receive the soul?
The moment the body perceives the outside world.

So we "receive" souls the moment that we make a distinction between ourselves and the Other? How sad.

 

[cardero]

So we "receive" souls the moment that we make a distinction between ourselves and the Other? How sad.

Actually it is the awareness of the physical existence and not necessarily a perception of self or others. It is the moment when we no longer rely being attached to another human. I am not sure if it is possible for two souls to occupy the same human shell.

 

[Napoleon]

Actually it is the awareness of the physical existence and not necessarily a perception of self or others.

I think thats slightly contradictory. How can one be aware of "physical existence" without even so much as perceiving yourself? I would argue that we can't really know when the soul enters the body until some medium exists through which the soul can express itself i.e. the mind. We can only know that the soul has entered the body when said being has the ability to perceive and becomes sentient. In the case of a fetus, this means an adequately developed nervous system. I would argue that sentience isn't possible, on average, prior to 26 weeks of development.

I am not sure if it is possible for two souls to occupy the same human shell.

They wouldn't be. There are two different minds and physical bodies present.

 

[gnostic]

I have heard of even before conception.

According to the Haggada, the angel force soul (or more precisely a spirit) into the sperm, long before the conception.

THE SOUL OF MAN

The care which God exercised in fashioning every detail of the body of man is as naught in comparison with His solicitude for the human soul. The soul of man was created on the first day, for it is the spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters. Thus, instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation.
This spirit, or, to call it by its usual name, the soul of man, possesses five different powers. By means of one of them she escapes from the body every night, rises up to heaven, and fetches new life thence for man.
With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.
The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived, the Angel of the Night, Lailah, carries the sperm before God, and God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it--whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all its other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, "Bring Me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so." The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before Him. At that moment, God issues the command, "Enter this sperm." The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: "O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which Thou didst call me into being. Why dost Thou now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of Thy glory?" God consoles her: "The world which I shall cause thee to enter is better than the world in which thou hast lived hitherto, and when I created thee, it was only for this purpose." The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. Two angels are detailed to watch that she shall not leave it, nor drop out of it, and a light is set above her, whereby the soul can see from one end of the world to the other. In the morning an angel carries her to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crowns upon their heads. The angel then says to the soul, "Dost thou know who these are?" She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: "These whom thou beholdest here were formed, like unto thee, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God's Torah and His commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which thou seest them enjoy. Know, also thou wilt one day depart from the world below, and if thou wilt observe God's Torah, then wilt thou be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, thou wilt be doomed to the other place."
In the evening, the angel takes the soul to hell, and there points out the sinners whom the Angels of Destruction are smiting with fiery scourges, the sinners all the while crying out Woe! Woe! but no mercy is shown unto them. The angel then questions the soul as before, "Dost thou know who these are?" and as before the reply is negative. The angel continues: "These who are consumed with fire were created like unto thee. When they were put into the world, they did not observe God's Torah and His commandments. Therefore have they come to this disgrace which thou seest them suffer. Know, thy destiny is also to depart from the world. Be just, therefore, and not wicked, that thou mayest gain the future world."
Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows her where she will live and where she will die, and the place where she will buried, and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinners and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months.
When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, "The time has come for thee to go abroad into the open world." The soul demurs, "Why dost thou want to make me go forth into the open world?" The angel replies: "Know that as thou wert formed against thy will, so now thou wilt be born against thy will, and against thy will thou shalt die, and against thy will thou shalt give account of thyself before the King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He." But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.
When the time arrives for man to quit this world, the same angel appears and asks him, "Dost thou recognize me?" And man replies, "Yes; but why dost thou come to me to-day, and thou didst come on no other day?" The angel says, "To take thee away from the world, for the time of thy departure has arrived." Then man falls to weeping, and his voice penetrates to all ends of the world, yet no creature hears his voice, except the **** alone. Man remonstrates with the angel, "From two worlds thou didst take me, and into this world thou didst bring me." But the angel reminds him: "Did I not tell thee that thou wert formed against thy will, and thou wouldst be born against thy will, and against thy will thou wouldst die? And against thy will thou wilt have to give account and reckoning of thyself before the Holy One, blessed be He."

 

[Smoke]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]From Krazy Kat, by Jay Cantor:

"She followed the pain as it took her deeper inside herself -- it was giving her an inside! An inside, she thought, is a terrible thing to have. It took her to a core, a heart within her physical heart. This pain wasn't content with burning her fur and her flesh and her blood, it wanted to eat up her soul! So a soul was something you found only as you lost it!"

[/FONT]

 

[cardero]

I think thats slightly contradictory. How can one be aware of "physical existence" without even so much as perceiving yourself? I would argue that we can't really know when the soul enters the body until some medium exists through which the soul can express itself i.e. the mind. We can only know that the soul has entered the body when said being has the ability to perceive and becomes sentient. In the case of a fetus, this means an adequately developed nervous system. I would argue that sentience isn't possible, on average, prior to 26 weeks of development.



They wouldn't be. There are two different minds and physical bodies present.

But there is still a connection between infant and mother so it is really part of the mother, I also think that you may be confusing the soul with mind and body.

 

[athanasius]

You must have linked to the wrong page.
The page you linked to says absolutely NOTHING about the soul, let alone the 'official Catholic' position on when the soul enters the body.

Nice.
You want me to look up the Catholic reasoning why the Catholic church...
Can we say circular reasoning times ten?

HMMM... What part of this quote from the vatican did not sound like life begins with conception: "Christian duty to defend and promote human life from the moment of conception" ?????

Interesting you tell me that I am using my own words and not the churches and suggest that I need to be quoting the sources. Then when I quote sources you say that I am using circular reasoning. Really what you want to do is just argue and not really discuss these things. It's too bad...you seem like such a angry person. Laugh a little. you'll live longer. Since you have no real desire to dialogue then I will just ignore your baits for useless debating and making your ego grow.

 

[McBell]

HMMM... What part of this quote from the vatican did not sound like life begins with conception: "Christian duty to defend and promote human life from the moment of conception" ?????

You got to be kidding me..!
Where in that article does it mention soul?
Nowhere.
I have already shown that life does not "begin" at conception.
Your not acknowledging it is your problem.

Interesting you tell me that I am using my own words and not the churches and suggest that I need to be quoting the sources. Then when I quote sources you say that I am using circular reasoning. Really what you want to do is just argue and not really discuss these things. It's too bad...you seem like such a angry person. Laugh a little. you'll live longer. Since you have no real desire to dialogue then I will just ignore your baits for useless debating and making your ego grow.

Nice try.
The fact is that you did not link to anything that shows the 'official catholic position' on when the soul enters the body.

Instead you try this strawman tactic of the 'beginning of life'. Which is not even addressed in article either.
Your assumptions are ridiculous and you are not fooling anyone other than yourself.
Then you present a bunch of nonsensical ad hominem.

If you wish to think that you have actually participated in dialog, by all means go ahead and delude yourself to your hearts content.

But I have learned that you will not answer a direct question with anything other than BS.

 

[Napoleon]

But there is still a connection between infant and mother so it is really part of the mother, I also think that you may be confusing the soul with mind and body.

If you want to go with that erroneous assertion then you'd have to be willing to say that siamese twins have no souls. Just because you're connected to something doesn't mean that you aren't a distinct being. I'm not confusing the soul with the mind and body; I'm saying that the mind and body have to be adequately developed before we have any evidence that a soul has entered the body.