When does the body receive the soul?

[cardero]

Napoloean writes: If you want to go with that erroneous assertion then you'd have to be willing to say that siamese twins have no souls.

I am not sure how the example of Siamese twins thwarts my belief. Siamese twins still have to be born and the soul still has to be infused during birth.

Napoloean writes: Just because you're connected to something doesn't mean that you aren't a distinct being. I'm not confusing the soul with the mind and body; I'm saying that the mind and body have to be adequately developed before we have any evidence that a soul has entered the body.

With the mind and body that we now possess and the many years of experience that we have lived so far, I am wondering what definitive evidence that we have that the soul even exists.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Ok admittedly I did not read the whole theread, but I'll answer anyway. I believe the child receives a soul at around the fourth month in the womb. Even doctors call that time the quickening, as this is usually when a fetus begins to move voluntarily. Fetuses usually do not have voluntary movement before that time, but may have it at any time after. This is why in Islam if there is to be an abortion it must be done within the first trimester, because after that, it gets a soul.

 

[Napoleon]

I am not sure how the example of Siamese twins thwarts my belief. Siamese twins still have to be born and the soul still has to be infused during birth.

Why would the soul have to be infused during birth? If you believe that a fetus has no soul because it is connected to the mother then you must also believe that siamese twins have no soul because they are connected to each other. Or are you arguing that the twins have 1 soul?

With the mind and body that we now possess and the many years of experience that we have lived so far, I am wondering what definitive evidence that we have that the soul even exists.

The entire thread is based on the presupposition that the soul exists. There is no empirical evidence of a soul.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I have heard of even before conception.

According to the Haggada, the angel force soul (or more precisely a spirit) into the sperm, long before the conception.

What you copied has many similarities to Islam conception of what the soul goes through even before it has entered into the body. That was an interesting read. Thanks for posting that.

 

[lilithu]

Ok admittedly I did not read the whole theread, but I'll answer anyway. I believe the child receives a soul at around the fourth month in the womb. Even doctors call that time the quickening, as this is usually when a fetus begins to move voluntarily. Fetuses usually do not have voluntary movement before that time, but may have it at any time after. This is why in Islam if there is to be an abortion it must be done within the first trimester, because after that, it gets a soul.

So in Islam, first-trimester abortions are permissible?

What if it is past the first-trimester but it is determined that the mother's health would be seriously endangered if she tried to carry to term?

I am not asking with the intention of debate. I just want to know the Islamic view.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

So in Islam, first-trimester abortions are permissible?

What if it is past the first-trimester but it is determined that the mother's health would be seriously endangered if she tried to carry to term?

I am not asking with the intention of debate. I just want to know the Islamic view.

The general rule is that an abortion must be done in the first trimester. However, if it is established that the mother or the child will be in serious danger if she gives birth, or it could mean death for one or both of them, then it is allowed to have an abortion even after that, and Allah knows best.

 

[cardero]

Napolean writes: If you believe that a fetus has no soul because it is connected to the mother then you must also believe that siamese twins have no soul because they are connected to each other. Or are you arguing that the twins have 1 soul?

I don’t believe a soul infuses with a developing infant while in the mother.

Napolean writes: The entire thread is based on the presupposition that the soul exists. There is no empirical evidence of a soul.

Napolean writes: We can only know that the soul has entered the body when said being has the ability to perceive and becomes sentient. In the case of a fetus, this means an adequately developed nervous system. I would argue that sentience isn't possible, on average, prior to 26 weeks of development.

Napoloean writes: Just because you're connected to something doesn't mean that you aren't a distinct being. I'm not confusing the soul with the mind and body; I'm saying that the mind and body have to be adequately developed before we have any evidence that a soul has entered the body.

Unless I am misunderstanding, your theory relies upon the development of human matter to detect any evidence of a soul. I am not aware of any standards and measures where a soul can be detected arriving or leaving a body let alone that a soul even exists. You may correct me if I am mistaken but your theory may be omitting premature infants who I believe are under-developed but are still birthed with a soul.

Napolean writes: Why would the soul have to be infused during birth?

The only time that I know that an individual can be perceived to be independently “BEing” (not relyng on others for “becoming&#8221 is during birth and as previously mentioned, two souls may not occupy the same body.

 

[gnostic]

What you copied has many similarities to Islam conception of what the soul goes through even before it has entered into the body. That was an interesting read. Thanks for posting that.

I have forgotten to provide the link. It is found in Sacred Texts. The Haggada was translated by Loius Ginzberg, and titled it as The Legends of the Jews (1908), volume 1 chapter 2.

It is here where I find much of Jewish folklore. Lots of stories of angels and demons not found in the Tanakh or the OT Bible.

 

[cardero]

For all those people who chose that the soul is recieved during conception, who is sending the soul?

 

[cardero]

Bumping this up before it ends up on the second page.

 

[Napoleon]

Unless I am misunderstanding, your theory relies upon the development of human matter to detect any evidence of a soul. I am not aware of any standards and measures where a soul can be detected arriving or leaving a body let alone that a soul even exists.

That is correct on both counts. My point was that, if you believe in souls, you cannot assume a fetus to have a soul unless it exhibits certain physical characteristics, namely, an adequately developed nervous system.

You may correct me if I am mistaken but your theory may be omitting premature infants who I believe are under-developed but are still birthed with a soul.

Not all fetus' develop at the same rate....I was speaking in general terms.

The only time that I know that an individual can be perceived to be independently “BEing” (not relyng on others for “becoming”) is during birth and as previously mentioned, two souls may not occupy the same body.

The degree of dependency is irrelevant. It is still A being which is not the same being as it's mother.

 

[cardero]

napoleon writes: That is correct on both counts. My point was that, if you believe in souls, you cannot assume a fetus to have a soul unless it exhibits certain physical characteristics, namely, an adequately developed nervous system.

Actually I find these degrees irrelevant since a developed nervous system is physical and a soul is possibly ethereal or spiritual and definitely not physical.

napoleon writes: The degree of dependency is irrelevant. It is still A being which is not the same being as it's mother.

What in your opinion would be the reason for the birth process to happen at all?