When, if ever, is lying morally permissible?

[Sunstone]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

 

[technomage]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

When lying saves a life or prevents harm ... oh, yeah.

 

[Revoltingest]

When lying achieves justice, it is proper.
This is especially true when avoiding a loss due to coercion.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Like technomage said, to save lives.

 

[Sunstone]

When lying saves a life or prevents harm ... oh, yeah.

Like technomage said, to save lives.

What about to gain advantage over one's enemies, such as during a war?

 

[McBell]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

Do these pants make my butt look big?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

What about to gain advantage over one's enemies, such as during a war?

That would depend on the purpose of the war, but I would have to say, in general, no.

 

[Badran]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

I think considering lying to always be wrong makes some sort of assumption that i owe the truth to all people, at all times, and regarding all matters, which i think is an unjustified assumption (or proposition). Rather than sort through the variety of examples in which lying can be justified, or more accurately, in which lying raises no objection i'd recognize as legitimate, i wanna stress that i think it is sufficient to say that lying is not by necessity wrong unless a logical reason is presented for why it is supposedly a black and white matter where an absolute, exceptionless moral statement is justified. If you know the basis Harris has for his belief, and are interested in sharing it, i'd be pretty interested in hearing it.

That said, since you're specifically asking for occasions where lying may be recognized as morally permissible, i'll give examples of some of the things i'd consider as such, and i'll start with the redundant. First, a minority in a fascist oppressive society, where mere acknowledgement of belonging to said minority may put someone's well-being at risk, for example, justifies lying in several contexts in such a circumstance. For someone to say that it is not morally permissible for a person to lie about personal information to save him/herself and their family from getting attacked or killed, for example (and there are and have been such horrifying circumstances) is utter nonsense. It's one of a few things; an idealistic judgement that is removed from reality and thus holds no relevance, a simplistic judgement that assumes there is always 'another way', or one which assumes that even if there's not, people should face the consequences of saying the truth regardless of what they are, which would be an interesting proposition to hear the justification for (and by interesting i mean silly).

There are many examples under that umbrella, where choice is diminished to begin with by there being severe, undesired and often undeserved consequences present (not that the diminished choice is a cornerstone to the justification, but it's a relevant consideration to keep in mind). Another example is personal matters where truth about one's self may be unsuitable/undesired to be shared and where a simple "I don't wanna talk about it" or "I'd rather not share" would be entirely out of order or meaningless. For example, there are questions which a none answer to is basically assumed as a 'yes', and in some of those instances, the yes is regarding a personal matter which i owe to no one to share, or is regarding something that would unnecessarily be hurtful.

Like if a particularly very caring and overtly sensitive person asked me if i was alright, and i had just had a truck load of problems in my life that i would neither want nor can summarize for them, i technically have to say either yes or no because saying "I don't wanna talk about it" is essentially saying yes. So the choice there is either saying yes (directly or indirectly) and insisting on not talking about it, which might be problematic to both parties (making me have go through unnecessary back and forth and hurtful to the other person if they wish they could help and think i don't want their help), or saying no, which may be more suitable until a more appropriate setting presents itself (and the reason i might not say that directly, "I'll tell you about it later" would be because in this example i'm talking about the kind of person who would insist you tell them what's up, despite of you saying that you'll tell them later, and would be hurt if you didn't). Similarly to the above, for someone to say that it is not morally permissible for a person to say that they're alright when they're not, would be a hilarious proposition in my view, and i'd certainly be interested in hearing the justification for that.

Another way to put all this is to say that somethings might just be neither moral or immoral.

What about to gain advantage over one's enemies, such as during a war?

More often than not war in my view is morally unjustified, thus lies aimed at advancing the same goals are just another expression of acts and principles i'd view as wrong (though with the complexity of reality, there can be several situations under that umbrella where a lie may be justified). That said, not all parties at all wars have no justification, some do, and in that case, lying can be justified to advance that cause, while keeping in mind that the general principle might not excuse some possible applications from being morally questionable (IOW, i think there can still be unjustified lies in that case).

 

[YmirGF]

Lying is often the only solution when the truth is unwanted.

As Mes wrote, "Do these pants make me look fat?"
It could be perilous to tell the truth.

Likewise, when German soldiers went house to house asking if any Jews were present the only recourse was to lie. Truth is so over-rated.

 

[Sees]

I think adaptation is part of being wise and realistic. So even if truth, sincerity, integrity are hugely important things for us, we can recognize times when deception, lies, fibs, "bending stories" is appropriate. To lie carelessly or as an attack on an otherwise innocent person is immoral and stupid in my opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

Sam Harris isn't quite so dogmatic in this regard, although he does take the extreme view.

I guess he convinced me on that particular, too (I read his short ebook on the matter). Lying is defensible if you are at gunpoint being asked something you don't know, or in some similar situation. But is that then even lying at all?

The problem with lying is that it amounts to giving up on future peace of conscience in exchange for immediate convenience. It ends up causing ever increasing hardships. It is simply not practical. Even lying for people that we do not want to deal with ends up misdirecting them and hurting our perspectives anyway.

 

[LuisDantas]

When lying achieves justice, it is proper.
This is especially true when avoiding a loss due to coercion.

Maybe you can give me some examples? I would be particularly interested where there is not enough coercion for a true choice to exist. As I just said, I wonder if it can be called lying in those cases.

True lying, I feel, can't achieve justice, because it is by nature misleading. Maybe what you describe is more like being forced to repeat some else's line.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do these pants make my butt look big?

There are alternatives to lying in this case. Unfortunately, this is a family forum so I can't give you any examples.

 

[LuisDantas]

Lying is often the only solution when the truth is unwanted.

As Mes wrote, "Do these pants make me look fat?"
It could be perilous to tell the truth.

Likewise, when German soldiers went house to house asking if any Jews were present the only recourse was to lie. Truth is so over-rated.

Harris does in fact address the specific example of lying to German soldiers in his ebook. Basically he says that while of course there is no point in accepting an invitation to be killed out of hatred, we must still seek the opportunity to point out that what is being asked of us is not the truth, but just submission to their power.

A subtle difference, perhaps. But thugs have a way of deluding themselves, and there is a moral duty to discourage them. Nazis might never have raised quite so high if we kept that in mind.

 

[LuisDantas]

What about to gain advantage over one's enemies, such as during a war?

War-based examples can only say anything about morality under the most exceptional of circunstances.

 

[ametist]

It isnt ever permitted to me. I never lie to myself. But of course there are always surprises, little jokes like not saying all you know out in open.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Lying, in and of itself, is morally neutral. Any system which paints dishonesty as inherently immoral completely ignores the fact that lying is a fundamental component of human communication and is necessary for social interaction to work effectively. We lie all the time, actively, unknowingly, through omission, and through body language for a whole host of reasons. As with anything, morality is a matter of the intention and results of lying. Lying is simply a tool, and it can be immoral, moral, or amoral. Social and cultural traditions which define lying as necessarily immoral only confuse and guilt people, as no action is inherently immoral unless it always results in harm to another. It's all about intentions with lying. Themost skillful lliars I've known are among the most moral people I've known and the most immoral people I've known. And, in both cases, among the most intelligent people I've known.

Additionally, I think to be a good liar, for good or bad, one has to be very empathetic. In essence, being able to convincingly lie because you believe it and communicate it in a believable way to who you are lying to. At least that's my take as an excellent liar.

 

[LuisDantas]

Lying, in and of itself, is morally neutral.

Except when there are people involved.

Any system which paints dishonesty as inherently immoral completely ignores the fact that lying is a fundamental component of human communication and is necessary for social interaction to work effectively.

Or challenges it, anyway...

We lie all the time, actively, unknowingly, through omission, and through body language for a whole host of reasons. As with anything, morality is a matter of the intention and results of lying. Lying is simply a tool, and it can be immoral, moral, or amoral. Social and cultural traditions which define lying as necessarily immoral only confuse and guilt people, as no action is inherently immoral unless it always results in harm to another. It's all about intentions with lying. The most skillful lliars I've known are among the most moral people I've known and the most immoral people I've known. And, in both cases, among the most intelligent people I've known.

I guess I will have to wonder for a while if you mean that.

Additionally, I think to be a good liar, for good or bad, one has to be very empathetic. In essence, being able to convincingly lie because you believe it and communicate it in a believable way to who you are lying to. At least that's my take as an excellent liar.

There is still room for improvement, though.

 

[technomage]

What about to gain advantage over one's enemies, such as during a war?

You're preventing harm to yourself/your side, yes?

War is already very tricky ground, morally speaking.

 

[bobhikes]

I would say lying is never morally permissible but the world is not moral and lying is a tool that can be used to prevent harm. As long as it is being used to prevent harm it is acceptable.