When is someone not a Christian?

[Terrywoodenpic]

If Paul the apostle had difficulty understanding why was Jesus crucified and what benefit came from it, we that relay on his writings would be in complit darkeness.
So can you explain your own question to me please.

The whole church at that time was having difficulty answering these questions. Paul did not have the Gospels to lean on. They were not yet written, these were his own view.

What the various churches believe today, is a result of those discussions. These at best are a consensus but not necessarily "Truth".

There are two sorts of faith.
One that believes what was written in the centuries following Jesus death is the one and only Truth.
The other, Believes in a more personal Revelation as to what is the truth, based on what has come down to us and our own relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

There are many questions like this to which I have no definitive answer.

why was Jesus crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?
what Occurs to us at Baptism?
Why might "confirmation" be necessary, what is the added benefit of it over Baptism?
What is the purpose of the Eucharist. (literal translation Thanks giving)?

These have all become entrenched as pillars of Christianity. And it is clear that Baptism and the Eucharist were instituted by Jesus. However the various Christian Churches Have very different views about them. And none clear views about their "effect"


Confirmation seems to have come about for pratical reasons, when other than a Bishop could officiate at Baptism. It still required a Bishop to lay hands on and anoint baptised members to complete the process, so this was done in groups later by a visiting Bishop.
The Likes of the Orthodox Churches would seem to have the more perfect solution with Chrismation.

 

[free spirit]

The whole church at that time was having difficulty answering these questions. Paul did not have the Gospels to lean on. They were not yet written, these were his own view.

Paul had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him therefore he din't need the written gospel, for the gospel was in him, his views were the Holy Spirit views.

What the various churches believe today, is a result of those discussions. These at best are a consensus but not necessarily "Truth".

By the time they had those discussions the epistles of the apostles had been already adulterated by the anemy of the gospel. You are correct about the consensus but it is not necessarely "truth"

There are two sorts of faith.
One that believes what was written in the centuries following Jesus death is the one and only Truth.

They worship the book despite their lack of understanding of it.

The other, Believes in a more personal Revelation as to what is the truth, based on what has come down to us and our own relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

By the grace of God I understand the scriptures and I have personal revelations in what is truth.

why was Jesus crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?

You will find the answer if you would pickup your cross and follow him.

 

[free spirit]

TERRYWOODENPIC
what Occurs to us at Baptism?
Why might "confirmation" be necessary, what is the added benefit of it over Baptism?

Today baby baptism is mostly taken to be an initiation into a church body, confirmation is the reiforcement of his baptism. It is man made therefore it is false.
On the other hand baptism into repentance and baptism by the Holy Spirit are live changing experiences, one has to go through them to know what it is all about.

What is the purpose of the Eucharist. (literal translation Thanks giving)?

to remenber what He did for us and give thanks.

These have all become entrenched as pillars of Christianity. And it is clear that Baptism and the Eucharist were instituted by Jesus. However the various Christian Churches Have very different views about them. And none clear views about their "effect"

Those Christians are "pretend" Christians because of the ignorance that is in them.

Confirmation seems to have come about for pratical reasons, when other than a Bishop could officiate at Baptism. It still required a Bishop to lay hands on and anoint baptised members to complete the process, so this was done in groups later by a visiting Bishop.
The Likes of the Orthodox Churches would seem to have the more perfect solution with Chrismation.

If they are man made they are therefore false.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

why was Jesus crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?

You will find the answer if you would pickup your cross and follow him.

The problem is... that the same benefit would have come to us even had he not died on the Cross. I do not believe in Religious magic.

According to the scriptures, Jesus was certain he Must Die. Had he not died then he would not have Ascended to Heaven when he did. I am unhappy with scripture when it is phrased as "proof" or foretold destiny.

I am not certain that we understand all that was going on at his death, resurrection and Ascension or indeed its true meaning.
I do not believe it had anything at all to do with original sin. And I am unhappy with any thought of replacement theology.

 

[free spirit]

The problem is... that the same benefit would have come to us even had he not died on the Cross. I do not believe in Religious magic.

According to the scriptures, Jesus was certain he Must Die. Had he not died then he would not have Ascended to Heaven when he did. I am unhappy with scripture when it is phrased as "proof" or foretold destiny.
I am not certain that we understand all that was going on at his death, resurrection and Ascension or indeed its true meaning.
I do not believe it had anything at all to do with original sin. And I am unhappy with any thought of replacement theology.

The cross was chosen because it is a slow death and anly after he had accomplished what he had come to accomplish he give up the spirit.
Jesus by dieing sinless He created a holy human soul, therefore establishing peace between God and man.

“Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I Am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the Father, but through Me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of His earthly life = Repentance
He is the “Truth” because He is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because He is the eternal Word = Eternal life
What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and/or lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he is acceptable to God.

 

[free spirit]

Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic

The problem is... that the same benefit would have come to us even had he not died on the Cross. I do not believe in Religious magic.

According to the scriptures, Jesus was certain he Must Die. Had he not died then he would not have Ascended to Heaven when he did. I am unhappy with scripture when it is phrased as "proof" or foretold destiny.
I am not certain that we understand all that was going on at his death, resurrection and Ascension or indeed its true meaning.
I do not believe it had anything at all to do with original sin. And I am unhappy with any thought of replacement theology.

1) The cross was chosen because it is a slow death and anly after he had accomplished what he had come to accomplish he give up the spirit.
2) Jesus by dieing sinless He created a holy human soul, therefore establishing peace between God and man.
3) By dieing sinless He fulfilled the law therefore He reversed what Adam did and He gave justification of life to all men.
4) He also took with him on the cross those whom he knew to be faithfull from all eternity. They are the chosen ones and the first fruits.
5) He ascendet into heaven to receive the promise enheritance, which is God Himself, therefore Jesus the man become one and the same with God.
6) Jesus therefore has first place in everything among many brethren
7) He is God and He is man; He is king and priest; He is Lord and He is saviour.
8) God's love for humanity is so great that He literally gave himself through Jesus to humanity so that those who make the grade will also become one with him.
I am sure the above are only a fraction of His accomplishments.

 

[confusedius]

So is someone "not a christian" if they believe in Jesus and His work but do not believe in super-natural occurrences such as resurrection?

 

[free spirit]

So is someone "not a christian" if they believe in Jesus and His work but do not believe in super-natural occurrences such as resurrection?

If there is no resurrection our faith is vain and we make Jesus a fraud.
The resurrection from the dead saves us from eternal death.
When a human soul receive the Holy Spirit he receives the hope of eternal life.
If he has not received the Holy Spirit he does not belong to Jesus, but he will be resurrected and judged according to his a her works, for all of humanity knows good and evil.

 

[not yet now]

in my book..due out next lifetime
not only christians get into the kingdom of heaven
since god the father gave all judgement of humanity to jesus..
a question might be ifn jesus would say
just coz they cant get a grip on the teachings of the bible
in part coz the christians so oft mess them up...
but if as in romans where paul says...

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law, are righteous before God; but the doers of the law are justified;
Rom 2:14 for if Gentiles who have not the law, shall, by their nature, do the things of the law; they, while without the law, become a law to themselves:
Rom 2:15 and they show the work of the law, as it is inscribed on their heart; and their conscience beareth testimony to them, their own reflections rebuking or vindicating one another,)
Rom 2:16 in the day in which God will judge the secret [actions] of men, as my gospel [teacheth], by Jesus the Messiah.

SO HERE SUPREME IS NOT RECOGNIZING JESUS
BUT RECOGNIZING THAT WHICH GOD HAS PUT IN EACH HEART
THAT DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN IN A LIFETIME
THAT THE SOUL COMES TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE AND JESUS...

Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

but here i might make mention
that perhaps the kingdom of heaven
is not for fully realized saints
but that biblical salvation requires they reincarnate
till they are proved perfect in an incarnation...

then they enter the kingdom of god
which is for only fully realized saints...

about an earlier incarnation of jesus
read zechariah in the old testament ..chapter 6

LATER EDITING IN THE PASSAGE OF ZECHARIAH
WHICH I THINK SAYS THAT JOSHUA THE HIGH PRIEST WAS AN INCARNATION OF JESUS
AND THAT HE WOULD LATER REINCARNATE AS JESUS..
Zec 6:10 to take of the captivity (who came from Babylon) from Heldai, from Tobijah, and from Jedaiah, `and thou hast come in--thou, in that day, yea, thou hast come into the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah,
Zec 6:11 and thou hast taken silver and gold, and hast made a crown, and hast placed on the head of Joshua son of Josedech, the high priest,
Zec 6:12 and hast spoken unto him, saying: Thus spake Jehovah of Hosts, saying: Lo, a man! A Shoot-- is his name, And from his place he doth shoot up, And he hath built the temple of Jehovah.
Zec 6:13 Yea, he doth build the temple of Jehovah, And he doth bear away honour, And he hath sat and ruled on His throne, And hath been a priest on His throne, And a counsel of peace is between both.
Zec 6:14 And the crown is to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of Jehovah.
Zec 6:15 And the far-off come in, and they have built in the temple of Jehovah, and ye have known that Jehovah of Hosts hath sent me unto you, yea, it hath come to pass, if ye do certainly hearken to the voice of Jehovah your God.'

 

[free spirit]

in my book..due out next lifetime
not only christians get into the kingdom of heaven
since god the father gave all judgement of humanity to jesus..
a question might be ifn jesus would say
just coz they cant get a grip on the teachings of the bible
in part coz the christians so oft mess them up...
but if as in romans where paul says...

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law, are righteous before God; but the doers of the law are justified;
Rom 2:14 for if Gentiles who have not the law, shall, by their nature, do the things of the law; they, while without the law, become a law to themselves:
Rom 2:15 and they show the work of the law, as it is inscribed on their heart; and their conscience beareth testimony to them, their own reflections rebuking or vindicating one another,)
Rom 2:16 in the day in which God will judge the secret [actions] of men, as my gospel [teacheth], by Jesus the Messiah.

SO HERE SUPREME IS NOT RECOGNIZING JESUS
BUT RECOGNIZING THAT WHICH GOD HAS PUT IN EACH HEART
THAT DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN IN A LIFETIME
THAT THE SOUL COMES TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE AND JESUS...

Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

As I have said God will judge those outside the body of Christ according to their works hither good or bad all of humanity knows that.

but here i might make mention
that perhaps the kingdom of heaven
is not for fully realized saints
but that biblical salvation requires they reincarnate
till they are proved perfect in an incarnation...
then they enter the kingdom of god
which is for only fully realized saints...

in the flesh no one is perfect regardless how many times we try.
However with the gift of the Holy Spirit we are lead into true repentance, only then we will be fully realized saints.

about an earlier incarnation of jesus
read zechariah in the old testament ..chapter 6

There is no earlier incarnation of Jesus: Jesus is the word that become flesh once.
However throughout the ages God rised up some men to be a tipe of Jesus, as He did with the apostle Paul for in Galatians 2:20 we read "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."
As you can see Jesus did not reincarnated in Paul, neverdeless Jesus was working through Paul.

 

[confusedius]

If there is no resurrection our faith is vain and we make Jesus a fraud.
The resurrection from the dead saves us from eternal death.
When a human soul receive the Holy Spirit he receives the hope of eternal life.
If he has not received the Holy Spirit he does not belong to Jesus, but he will be resurrected and judged according to his a her works, for all of humanity knows good and evil.

Forgive me, but this seems a bit like a pre-recorded message. Plus, it pre-supposes that one believes in original sin, which I do not. I do not see how doubt about what could easily be the wild imaginings of ignorant humans reduces the great work of Jesus to "fraud", or me to "non-christian".

James

 

[ellenjanuary]

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Ain't nothing but Christian, up in here.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

 

[Jacksnyte]

[youtube]0nXbCnGL-TY[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nXbCnGL-TY&feature=player_embedded

 

[free spirit]

Forgive me, but this seems a bit like a pre-recorded message.

It seems a bit like, because is a well known fact.

Plus, it pre-supposes that one believes in original sin, which I do not.

unbelieve doesnot exonerate you from being judged.

I do not see how doubt about what could easily be the wild imaginings of ignorant humans reduces the great work of Jesus to "fraud", or me to "non-christian".

James

Proverb 9:10, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowlege of the HOLY ONE is understanding." there is no room for doubt, doubt is umbelieve, you need to seek understanding for only then you will overcome your doubts.

 

[Vinayaka]

It seems to me that only the individual themselves can define who they are. If someone says he or she's a Christian, then by their definition, they are. There would be just too many definitions. I remember when the pope came to visit my town a long time ago, and some Christians were rallying against the anti-Christ (the pope) coming. Others got insulted. So its like, "You're the baby." "No, you're the baby." "Only a baby would call someone else a baby." And thus it descends into this absurd ironic discussion. Why bother questioning what someone else says they are? Then there are those of us in the audience who relish in the humour within the absurdity.

 

[Alceste]

Okay, it was a toss-up between putting it here or the Christianity DIR. I chose here because I'd like some suggestions from non-Christians as to what the person in question is.

Ok, so I know a gal who calls herself Christian. However, within her beliefs, she doesn't believe:

in the Biblical God ("and if he was real, he'd be NUTS.") She does believe in God, but not from the Bible, even approaching it as metaphorical
the Bible ("full of myths, and outdated rules")
in Heaven or Hell (reincarnation)
Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, or performed miracles
Jesus was the Son of God any more than we are as humans
Trust Paul, at all
The virgin Mary was a virgin
in churches as useful
in the Trinity


She's said she is a Christian, though, just different-thinking.

So, when is someone not a Christian? Can someone not believe in ALL these, and still be Christian (to you)? Would this lady most likely be?

I know you don't need to believe ALL of these, btw, but I'm wondering where the 'disbelief' line is?

She sounds like United Church of Canada, or maybe UU.

There is no line. If you think you're a Christian, you're a Christian. It's a subjective designation, not an objective one. IOW, it is a word we can use to describe ourselves if we choose, but the opinion of others on whether or not we should use it is meaningless. If you can't find a sect that agrees with your theology, you can start one.

 

[Alceste]

You are Christian if you follow the "rules" of the Bible... In my opinion, your friend is not a Christian.

Not so. That would make you a fundamentalist specifically, not a Christian in general.

Many Christians believe they have a personal relationship with Christ. Whatever happens to be in the Bible is secondary to that personal relationship, as far as they are concerned. IOW, Christ can tell us what to do directly and Christian literature is better approached as fodder for meditation rather than a fixed set of unbreakable rules.

The trouble is, many Christians actually read the Bible, after which it is impossible to maintain the illusion that it is the infallible word of god.

 

[Alceste]

I believe that this is a true definition of a Christian we read in Roman 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him." To have the Spirit of Christ is a fact beyond faith.

Did Christ worship a book?

 

[Alceste]

If there is no resurrection our faith is vain and we make Jesus a fraud.

If there is no resurrection, your faith is likely to be practicing the teachings of Jesus here, on this Earth, in this life, and doing whatever you can to transform this world into the kingdom of God. You make Jesus a sage, a role model, a teacher, a light in the darkness and the human voice of your God on earth.

The resurrection from the dead saves us from eternal death.

So what? What does eternal life have to do with loving your god with all your heart, or loving your neighbour as you love your god?

When a human soul receive the Holy Spirit he receives the hope of eternal life.
If he has not received the Holy Spirit he does not belong to Jesus, but he will be resurrected and judged according to his a her works, for all of humanity knows good and evil.

A bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Many Christians think Christ would agree.