When is someone not a Christian?

[free spirit]

I am happy for people to read what they like into the Bible.
even the "way out" ideas.

Obviously your knowlege of the bible is very limited, or very superficial. I do not know you but to me your appear to be captive of your denomination.
Are you afraid to seek God by yourself?
We read in Roman 8:16-17, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in horder that we may also be glorified with Him."

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Obviously your knowlege of the bible is very limited, or very superficial. I do not know you but to me your appear to be captive of your denomination.
Are you afraid to seek God by yourself?
We read in Roman 8:16-17, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in horder that we may also be glorified with Him."

I am a long time Anglican albeit with many Heretical views.
The following is more the stance I take ... Taken from the Comber Non subscribing presbyterian church....Built by, and on land given by my great grandfather who was unitarian.

1. What Does “Non-Subscribing” mean?
   
   It means that we are not bound by compulsory subscription to man-made creeds and doctrines of Faith.
   
   We declare allegiance to the principle that:
   1. 1. the teaching of Christ must take precedence over the doctrines of a later time, and
      2. Christian unity is to be sought, not in the uniformity of creed but in a common standard of duty and adherence to the commandments set out in the Holy Bible.
   OUR FAITH
   1. 1. is governed by the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible
      2. asserts and upholds the right of each and every individual to search these scriptural records for themselves and to use reason and personal conscience to discover God’s Divine Truth
      3. removes Human Tests and Confessions of Faith that restrict private judgement and prevent free enquiry
      4. upholds the beautiful simplicity of the great commandments as defined by Jesus Christ: “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind” and “You must love your neighbour as yourself”

Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

 

[free spirit]

I am a long time Anglican albeit with many Heretical views.
The following is more the stance I take ... Taken from the Comber Non subscribing presbyterian church....Built by, and on land given by my great grandfather who was unitarian.

1. What Does “Non-Subscribing” mean?
   
   It means that we are not bound by compulsory subscription to man-made creeds and doctrines of Faith.
   
   
   We declare allegiance to the principle that:
   1. 1. the teaching of Christ must take precedence over the doctrines of a later time, and
      2. Christian unity is to be sought, not in the uniformity of creed but in a common standard of duty and adherence to the commandments set out in the Holy Bible.
   OUR FAITH
   1. 1. is governed by the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible
      2. asserts and upholds the right of each and every individual to search these scriptural records for themselves and to use reason and personal conscience to discover God’s Divine Truth
      3. removes Human Tests and Confessions of Faith that restrict private judgement and prevent free enquiry
      4. upholds the beautiful simplicity of the great commandments as defined by Jesus Christ: “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind” and “You must love your neighbour as yourself”

Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

Well brother I am like you: all I am missing is the label that you have put on yourself, that label anfortunately unbeknown to you is making you conform to the group. In My free enquiry I have found that the New Testament has been purposely adulterated with lies and ambiguities like the following.
(V) In Matthew 27:52-53 we trustfully read: “And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
I believe that the above two verses report something which never took place and therefore those lies are used to divert our attention from the Lord, because it is impossible for it to have occurred before or after the resurrection of the Lord, for we read in 2Timothy 2:18 about: “Men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.”
In Acts 2:29, Peter says, “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” So Peter effectively says some time after the day of Pentecost that the body of David is still in his tomb (Confirmed by Acts 2:30-36) It is reasonable for us to assume that if the body of King David did not qualify for that alleged resurrection we can be certain that it never took place.
In addition to that, the numbers of anomalies that those two verses contain are also an indication that our Lord never dictated them because:
1) The resurrection of the body will take place on the last day (Read John 11:24, 1Corinthians 15:52, and all of chapter 20 of Revelation.)
2) It should be obvious to anyone that even if those verses in Matthew were true, they are written in the wrong place and therefore are not in harmony with what was actually taking place. Jesus had just died and the alleged resurrection supposedly took place after His resurrection, so why write it there?
3) If the alleged resurrection was after the Lord’s resurrection, why is it conveniently connected with the strange natural things that were happening in relation with the Son of God’s death? (Earthquake etc.)
4) Also if those verses were true, the resurrection of our Lord with His heavenly body would become one of many and no longer one of a kind.
5) Any Christian writer would have known that Jerusalem was no longer the “Holy City” because the presence of God was no longer in the temple (read Matthew 23:38) and the city’s destruction had been foretold (read Mark 13:2).
6) We should also consider that the above verses do nothing to advance the knowledge of God but they are used extensively by the untaught to promote their own useless fantasies. Those who do not understand the Word preach best through their fleshly imagination by abandoning themselves to colourfully speculate what Jesus supposedly did while He was dead in the tomb.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 says it all: “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the Knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.”
In other words, speculations are to be treated with the contempt they deserve, but the truth is supported by a variety of thought (or Scriptures) which are relevant to our every day lives and behaviour pleasing to Christ.

 

[dmgdnooc]

Okay, it was a toss-up between putting it here or the Christianity DIR. I chose here because I'd like some suggestions from non-Christians as to what the person in question is.

Ok, so I know a gal who calls herself Christian. However, within her beliefs, she doesn't believe:

in the Biblical God ("and if he was real, he'd be NUTS.") She does believe in God, but not from the Bible, even approaching it as metaphorical
the Bible ("full of myths, and outdated rules")
in Heaven or Hell (reincarnation)
Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, or performed miracles
Jesus was the Son of God any more than we are as humans
Trust Paul, at all
The virgin Mary was a virgin
in churches as useful
in the Trinity


She's said she is a Christian, though, just different-thinking.

So, when is someone not a Christian? Can someone not believe in ALL these, and still be Christian (to you)? Would this lady most likely be?

I know you don't need to believe ALL of these, btw, but I'm wondering where the 'disbelief' line is?

Seems to me being a Christian is more about how one views one's self and one's relationships (with the divine, other persons and the natural world) and the impact that has on one's actions.
If one tends to perceive these things through the lens of Christ, and that perception has an effect on behaviour, then clearly one is a Christian.
　
So, in the absence of proven and extreme evidence to the contrary (of the order of sociopathic baby strangling) if the lady says she is a Christian then my advice is to take her at her word.
There is no credit to be had from, or reasonable basis for, judging another man's servant.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well brother I am like you: all I am missing is the label that you have put on yourself, that label anfortunately unbeknown to you is making you conform to the group. In My free enquiry I have found that the New Testament has been purposely adulterated with lies and ambiguities like the following.
(V) In Matthew 27:52-53 we trustfully read: “And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
I believe that the above two verses report something which never took place and therefore those lies are used to divert our attention from the Lord, because it is impossible for it to have occurred before or after the resurrection of the Lord, for we read in 2Timothy 2:18 about: “Men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.”
In Acts 2:29, Peter says, “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” So Peter effectively says some time after the day of Pentecost that the body of David is still in his tomb (Confirmed by Acts 2:30-36) It is reasonable for us to assume that if the body of King David did not qualify for that alleged resurrection we can be certain that it never took place.
In addition to that, the numbers of anomalies that those two verses contain are also an indication that our Lord never dictated them because:
1) The resurrection of the body will take place on the last day (Read John 11:24, 1Corinthians 15:52, and all of chapter 20 of Revelation.)
2) It should be obvious to anyone that even if those verses in Matthew were true, they are written in the wrong place and therefore are not in harmony with what was actually taking place. Jesus had just died and the alleged resurrection supposedly took place after His resurrection, so why write it there?
3) If the alleged resurrection was after the Lord’s resurrection, why is it conveniently connected with the strange natural things that were happening in relation with the Son of God’s death? (Earthquake etc.)
4) Also if those verses were true, the resurrection of our Lord with His heavenly body would become one of many and no longer one of a kind.
5) Any Christian writer would have known that Jerusalem was no longer the “Holy City” because the presence of God was no longer in the temple (read Matthew 23:38) and the city’s destruction had been foretold (read Mark 13:2).
6) We should also consider that the above verses do nothing to advance the knowledge of God but they are used extensively by the untaught to promote their own useless fantasies. Those who do not understand the Word preach best through their fleshly imagination by abandoning themselves to colourfully speculate what Jesus supposedly did while He was dead in the tomb.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 says it all: “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the Knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.”
In other words, speculations are to be treated with the contempt they deserve, but the truth is supported by a variety of thought (or Scriptures) which are relevant to our every day lives and behaviour pleasing to Christ.

I have never supposed that the scriptures were either perfect or literal.
Matthew was mostly sourced from Mark and the lost "Q" writings.

We have no idea how many other scriptural writings were lost.

However what we have is what we have... it is not Lies. it is what the writers believed to be true, and is based on the best information and current beliefs of their time.... as for which translation you use ... I prefer the KJV.

Christianity was in a massive state of flux during the mid first century.. Read the Didache if you want to see how those early Christians were being trained.
It is nothing at all like the Christianity of today... But it can not be denied they were in every way Christians.

 

[free spirit]

I have never supposed that the scriptures were either perfect or literal.
Matthew was mostly sourced from Mark and the lost "Q" writings.

We have no idea how many other scriptural writings were lost.

However what we have is what we have... it is not Lies. it is what the writers believed to be true, and is based on the best information and current beliefs of their time.... as for which translation you use ... I prefer the KJV.

Christianity was in a massive state of flux during the mid first century.. Read the Didache if you want to see how those early Christians were being trained.
It is nothing at all like the Christianity of today... But it can not be denied they were in every way Christians.

I do not judge who is a Christian, because those who delude themselves to be Christian know that they are deluding demselves.

Yes the scriptures are what they are but we have the faculty to reason and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit we should know what is false and what is true.

The following Scriptures are reliable testimony of the existence of stumbling blocks for in Matthew 13:24-25, “He presented another parable to them, saying. ‘The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.”’ And in Matthew 18:7, again Jesus said, “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!”
Also 2Peter 3:16 strongly warned us by saying: “As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also to the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” Again 2Peter 2:1-2 is very specific by saying: “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.”

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not judge who is a Christian, because those who delude themselves to be Christian know that they are deluding demselves.

Yes the scriptures are what they are but we have the faculty to reason and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit we should know what is false and what is true.

The following Scriptures are reliable testimony of the existence of stumbling blocks for in Matthew 13:24-25, “He presented another parable to them, saying. ‘The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.”’ And in Matthew 18:7, again Jesus said, “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!”
Also 2Peter 3:16 strongly warned us by saying: “As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also to the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” Again 2Peter 2:1-2 is very specific by saying: “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.”

It is very difficult to use an imperfect document as the authority for an argument.

It is better to disregard the detail and use the "impression of the whole" as a guide as to what might be true. Then discard or at least hold to question, that which falls outside or contradicts that overall truth.
There is no doubt in my mind that God guides us in this personal truth.

I am sure it is counter productive to "mine" the Bible in search of hidden messages or to search for passages that might seem to support pet theories.

I feel it is better to read it all ... forget the detail... and live the message.

 

[confusedius]

It is very difficult to use an imperfect document as the authority for an argument.

It is better to disregard the detail and use the "impression of the whole" as a guide as to what might be true. Then discard or at least hold to question, that which falls outside or contradicts that overall truth.
There is no doubt in my mind that God guides us in this personal truth.

I am sure it is counter productive to "mine" the Bible in search of hidden messages or to search for passages that might seem to support pet theories.

I feel it is better to read it all ... forget the detail... and live the message.

Very well said! Living by it will be much more of a challenge, we all have our "pet" verses, no? I am going to try and do just that though, the logic of it is just so clear...

James

 

[free spirit]

It is very difficult to use an imperfect document as the authority for an argument.

It is better to disregard the detail and use the "impression of the whole" as a guide as to what might be true. Then discard or at least hold to question, that which falls outside or contradicts that overall truth.
There is no doubt in my mind that God guides us in this personal truth.

I am sure it is counter productive to "mine" the Bible in search of hidden messages or to search for passages that might seem to support pet theories.

I feel it is better to read it all ... forget the detail... and live the message.

Proverbs 9:10, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." Some of us are happy with only the fear of the Lord,... I need to know the Lord, it is not a choice it is a burning desire.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Proverbs 9:10, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." Some of us are happy with only the fear of the Lord,... I need to know the Lord, it is not a choice it is a burning desire.

Absolutely.
However where is this knowledge to be found? is it only to be found in the compiled remaining scriptures we call the Bible?
Or combined with the guidance of the holy spirit, prayer, study and oral tradition of previous generations of Christians, and the love of our fellow men?
I would maintain that all these lead to a fuller understanding of God, and a life lived more closely to his desire.
The pharisees and Sadducees live by the detail of the law. Jesus showed us that is both insufficient, hypocritical and wrong.

 

[free spirit]

Absolutely.
However where is this knowledge to be found? is it only to be found in the compiled remaining scriptures we call the Bible?

In Luke 24:45 we read, "Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."
The Holy Spirit is the teacher, the Scriptures anly confirms what the Spirit of God is telling you.

Or combined with the guidance of the holy spirit, prayer, study and oral tradition of previous generations of Christians, and the love of our fellow men?
I would maintain that all these lead to a fuller understanding of God, and a life lived more closely to his desire.

Absolutely

The pharisees and Sadducees live by the detail of the law. Jesus showed us that is both insufficient, hypocritical and wrong.

The Jews and those who love their denomination doctrines have yet to learn that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Jews and those who love their denomination doctrines have yet to learn that.

Some have, some have not.
Very few vote a straight ticket.

If you read some of "Levites" answers, you will find some very wise understandings about God and Man.

God can be far closer to us than a particular religion.

 

[free spirit]

Some have, some have not.
Very few vote a straight ticket.

If you read some of "Levites" answers, you will find some very wise understandings about God and Man.

God can be far closer to us than a particular religion.

The Gospel is the life of God: therefore if anyone is religious he doen't understand the Gospel or the new testament scriptures.
I like your opinion on my following understanding of verse 13 of Galatian 3.

IV) And in Galatians 3:13 I have found other lies about my Lord and about His accomplished works, for it reads: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.’”
It is ludicrous to say that He redeemed us from the curse of the law by allowing Himself to become a curse for us, just by dying while hanging on a tree.
Before we go any further it is important for us to understand that the tree is only a tool to administer death to a condemned man. We must surely know that it is the sins that the man has committed that makes him accursed and not the way he dies. That is why the law became a curse for us, because we could not keep it and consequently we merited death because of our transgressions, not because the law in itself was bad. (So death is not a curse, but it’s the consequence of sin). He came to fulfil the law for us and by fulfilling the law He absorbed the law in Himself. Therefore He became a blessing for us, because He freed us from the curse of the law written on tablets of stone, having replaced them with the law of the spirit of Himself (the Holy Spirit). I am fully convinced that it is correct for the above verse of Galatians 3:13 to read: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having fulfilled the law for us.”
We all know that our Lord became flesh for us and consequently He was made sin, because the flesh and sin are one and the same. Also our Lord (who is a type of Adam) took those of us who are faithful in Himself on the cross. He also took the sin of the whole world on the cross for the justification of all humanity as He fulfilled the law by being obedient even to death. But none of the above is a curse in itself. However, the law became a curse to us because we could not keep it. By doing all of the above He became a blessing for all those who believe and obey Him.
We would certainly and clearly see the error if we read Deuteronomy 21:23 in context with verse 22. We will then discover that part of verse 23 doesn’t apply to our Lord, for we read in Deuteronomy 21: 22-23: “And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, (23) his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.” We can all sorely see that the above underlined scripture of verse 23 doesn’t apply to our Lord because our Lord was not guilty of having “committed a sin worthy of death,” required in the previous verse. In fact He was sinless, regardless of how He appeared to those who witnessed, or condemned Him to death. (Yes, He was made sin but never committed sin. Isn’t that something that we should rejoice about? For by doing that, Jesus stripped sin of the power of the law.)
Furthermore the testimony of 1Corinthians 12:3 reinforces that He didn’t become accursed for it is written: “That no one speaking by the spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed.” With those undisputable proofs in hand we should only come to one obvious conclusion: that the Scriptures suggesting that our blessed Lord become a curse for us is nothing but a “blasphemous diversion” working against the knowledge of the accomplished works of our Lord.
If you are not yet convinced, I would suggest that you insert the corrected verse in Galatians 3:13 and judge it in context and you will see that the whole chapter, and indeed all of Galatians, is explaining to us how the curse of the law has been replaced by having faith in the grace of Christ, who paid the price for us by enduring the brutal sufferings of the cross and yet died sinless. He thus fulfilled the law for us, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith in Him. Read 1Corinthians 15:55-57 and you will see that death and sin are defeated by the fulfilment of the law and not by Christ’s dying hanging on a tree. Read Romans 5:17-21 and you will also see that through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men; even so, the total obedience to the law of one Man resulted in justification of life to all men.
It is vital that all believers understand the book of Galatians, which explains faith in the grace of Christ in contrast to the works of the law. Satan knows that and so he uses all means in order to defend the written ambiguity, which clearly denigrates the character of our God, the accomplished works of our Lord, and the character and epistles of His apostles.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Gospel is the life of God: therefore if anyone is religious he doen't understand the Gospel or the new testament scriptures.
I like your opinion on my following understanding of verse 13 of Galatian 3.

IV) And in Galatians 3:13 I have found other lies about my Lord and about His accomplished works,...............................

You are doing here exactly what I do not recommend. That is Trying to construct detailed argument for a series of different texts, written to different peoples.
Paul comes back to these ideas numerous times when writing to his churches.
Sometime I feel he is trying to sort out these concepts in his own mind... which were far from clear to him, or he would have had made
one definitive statement.

What he seems to be trying to clarify is why was Jesus Crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?...Salvation, sin, redemption, justification ... are all mixed as ingredients with these thoughts.
Secondly it must be remembered that he was writing to new churches who had no tradition in Jewish religious thought. who knew nothing of Jesus, and his teachings and death... except what they had heard from Paul ( and may be Barnabas and others who travelled with him).
Paul was answering difficult questions, about which he was not entirely clear himself.

In the light of the whole Bible we must answer that same question..."why was Jesus Crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?... we will not find the answer in a collections of passages however well they link.

 

[confusedius]

The oversized fonts are almost impossible to read! Please...

 

[free spirit]

Paul was answering difficult questions, about which he was not entirely clear himself.

In the light of the whole Bible we must answer that same question..."why was Jesus Crucified and what benefit came from it, to us?... we will not find the answer in a collections of passages however well they link.

If Paul the apostle had difficulty understanding why was Jesus crucified and what benefit came from it, we that relay on his writings would be in complit darkeness.
So can you explain your own question to me please.

 

[free spirit]

The oversized fonts are almost impossible to read! Please...

What do you mean?

 

[confusedius]

Well, those of us who are having vision troubles have a very hard time reading letters that are too large for the computer screen. I am asking folks to quit posting letters that are too big - it is like all caps- screaming in my eyes! See post #93 as an example.

I'd like some suggestions from non-Christians as to what the person in question is.

Ok, so I know a gal who calls herself Christian. However, within her beliefs, she doesn't believe:

in the Biblical God ("and if he was real, he'd be NUTS.") She does believe in God, but not from the Bible, even approaching it as metaphorical
the Bible ("full of myths, and outdated rules")
in Heaven or Hell (reincarnation)
Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, or performed miracles
Jesus was the Son of God any more than we are as humans
Trust Paul, at all
The virgin Mary was a virgin
in churches as useful
in the Trinity


She's said she is a Christian, though, just different-thinking.

So, why is this restricted to "non-christians"?

 

[free spirit]

Well, those of us who are having vision troubles have a very hard time reading letters that are too large for the computer screen. I am asking folks to quit posting letters that are too big - it is like all caps- screaming in my eyes! See post #93 as an example.

I think you should have your computer screen checked and adjusted if possible.

 

[Breathe]

So, why is this restricted to "non-christians"?

If you want to answer regardless, go ahead. I don't mind.