When is someone not a Christian?

[free spirit]

Basically I signed a membership card, but now we are talking two different things.
Christ's Church is not an earthly organization like the Rotarians or the United Methodist Church. Christ's Church is the collection of the followers of Christ.
Folks can follow Christ without understanding that is who they are following if they are displaying Christlike qualities. Jesus said we are known by our fruits. If I see someone acting like Christ taught us to act and doing so out of their heart rather than to seek some reward I have to view them as a brother or sister in Christ, regardless of their stated religious affiliation. They are in the body of Christ.

For a true Christian It is not sufficient to do anly good things, for those will be judged by their works; a true christian also confesses Jesus as Lord.

 

[Justin Thyme]

For a true Christian It is not sufficient to do anly good things, for those will be judged by their works; a true christian also confesses Jesus as Lord.

The prophet Micah tells us that God only requires three things from us; acting justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with God. The Apostle John tells us that Jesus was the The Word made flesh. Confessing that Jesus is Lord would then be the same as confessing the Will of God is Lord. (My Heathen friends might think of this as The Wyrd made flesh. Orlog then is Lord? ) Jesus tells us that we must be born again. Isn't He saying then that we must be totally changed? Isn't the change he's talking about being that of a person doing good out of the love of God and not a person who does good just to get into the Kingdom of Heaven? "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and might and love thy neighbor as thyself." Jesus tells us that on these two commandments hangs all the laws and the prophets. If you do those two things, both internal, all your actions will automatically be in accordance to The Law. Being "born again" means you become a person that this is just inherent in. Knowing Jesus as Lord is knowing this, not knowing His Name. One can know this regardless of one's professed religion. If you are "born again" you are of the body of Christ and that is true regardless of you being Hindu, Wiccan, Kemetic, Muslim, Buddhist or Druid. There is but one way, one path, to salvation but it goes by many, many names.

 

[Pegg]

Okay, it was a toss-up between putting it here or the Christianity DIR. I chose here because I'd like some suggestions from non-Christians as to what the person in question is.

Ok, so I know a gal who calls herself Christian. However, within her beliefs, she doesn't believe:

in the Biblical God ("and if he was real, he'd be NUTS.") She does believe in God, but not from the Bible, even approaching it as metaphorical
the Bible ("full of myths, and outdated rules")
in Heaven or Hell (reincarnation)
Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, or performed miracles
Jesus was the Son of God any more than we are as humans
Trust Paul, at all
The virgin Mary was a virgin
in churches as useful
in the Trinity


She's said she is a Christian, though, just different-thinking.

So, when is someone not a Christian? Can someone not believe in ALL these, and still be Christian (to you)? Would this lady most likely be?

I know you don't need to believe ALL of these, btw, but I'm wondering where the 'disbelief' line is?

I dont believe you can really be a christian and not believe in God or Jesus or the bible.

perhaps her family are christian and for that reason she identifies herself with christianity because its her cultural heritage... but to actually be a Christian, she would need to confess her faith in God and 'follow Christ' as Gods means of salvation.
You cannot follow someone if you dont believe in them. You cannot worship a God you dont believe in.

 

[free spirit]

The prophet Micah tells us that God only requires three things from us; acting justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with God. The Apostle John tells us that Jesus was the The Word made flesh. Confessing that Jesus is Lord would then be the same as confessing the Will of God is Lord. (My Heathen friends might think of this as The Wyrd made flesh. Orlog then is Lord? ) Jesus tells us that we must be born again. Isn't He saying then that we must be totally changed? Isn't the change he's talking about being that of a person doing good out of the love of God and not a person who does good just to get into the Kingdom of Heaven? "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and might and love thy neighbor as thyself." Jesus tells us that on these two commandments hangs all the laws and the prophets. If you do those two things, both internal, all your actions will automatically be in accordance to The Law. Being "born again" means you become a person that this is just inherent in. Knowing Jesus as Lord is knowing this, not knowing His Name. One can know this regardless of one's professed religion. If you are "born again" you are of the body of Christ and that is true regardless of you being Hindu, Wiccan, Kemetic, Muslim, Buddhist or Druid. There is but one way, one path, to salvation but it goes by many, many names.

You are correct in the sense that “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I Am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the Father, but through Me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of His earthly life = Repentance
He is the “Truth” because He is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because He is the eternal Word = Eternal life
What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and/or lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he is acceptable to God but he is not a Christian; ACTS 10:1-48 tells the story of Cornelius of how he become a Christian, as far as I know nothing has changed; there are good and godly men like Cornelius in the world and they will be judged by their works, however to be a Christian is having the potential of becoming a son of God as we read in John 1:12, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

 

[free spirit]

Being "born again" means you become a person that this is just inherent in. Knowing Jesus as Lord is knowing this, not knowing His Name. One can know this regardless of one's professed religion. If you are "born again" you are of the body of Christ and that is true regardless of you being Hindu, Wiccan, Kemetic, Muslim, Buddhist or Druid. There is but one way, one path, to salvation but it goes by many, many names.

Nothing in what I have read or in what I have heard from preachers has explained the fundamental differences between seeing the Kingdom of God, and entering the Kingdom of God.
For we read in John 3:3: “Jesus answered and said to him, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
And in verse 5 we read: “Jesus answered, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”
From the above verses we learn that there are two stages of transition if you like: one is to enable men to see the Kingdom of God and the other is to enable men to enter the Kingdom of God.
Avery believing and sincere religious person has been born again and can see the kingdom of God.
Now to understand the transitional meaning of being “born of water and the spirit”, or to enter the kingdom one has to consider that the Lord is telling us that a conversion of our beliefs and attitude has to take place through our immersion in the water of the word, and to live our lives according to our new understanding of godliness which comes from that word. That is to say, this conversion has to move us from a faith based on religions doctrines to a lifestyle of godliness so that we might eventually share His Divine character.

 

[Justin Thyme]

this conversion has to move us from a faith based on religions doctrines to a lifestyle of godliness so that we might eventually share His Divine character.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach this idea and concept to the world but people seeking God have found this on their own, much like Cornelius.

 

[free spirit]

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Jesus sent his disciples out to preach this idea and concept to the world but people seeking God have found this on their own, much like Cornelius.

Yes, but Cornelius being a good man also needed to be made perfect by hearing the gospel of the Christ and receive the Holy Spirit.
For we read in 1 John 3:9, "no one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

And we read in ACTS 4:12, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[Justin Thyme]

Yes, but Cornelius being a good man also needed to be made perfect by hearing the gospel of the Christ and receive the Holy Spirit.

Clearly I don't disagree with this but I think the more immediate point of this story is what Peter received in his experience with Cornelius. God used Cornelius as a way to impress upon Peter that *all* mankind was created by God, not just the Jews. So while Cornelius was blessed by receiving the Holy Spirit Peter actually received the greater blessing in receiving Cornelius as a brother in Christ.

 

[free spirit]

Clearly I don't disagree with this but I think the more immediate point of this story is what Peter received in his experience with Cornelius. God used Cornelius as a way to impress upon Peter that *all* mankind was created by God, not just the Jews.

Sure, God taught Peter in a practical way that the Gentiles are also of the household of God; and it is always a joy to meet a new brother in Christ.

So while Cornelius was blessed by receiving the Holy Spirit Peter actually received the greater blessing in receiving Cornelius as a brother in Christ.

With this statement you worry me because there is no greater blessing than that of receiving the Holy Spirit: obviously you do not realise that the gift of the Holy Spirit is God in you.
Please examine yourself if you are in the faith because we read in 2John 1:9, "Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the father and the Son."

 

[Justin Thyme]

Both Peter and Cornelius received the Holy Spirit. With Peter though, he also was blessed by the Holy Spirit with an understanding that God is the God of all, not just the Jews. For Peter this was another "Born Again" moment.

 

[free spirit]

Both Peter and Cornelius received the Holy Spirit. With Peter though, he also was blessed by the Holy Spirit with an understanding that God is the God of all, not just the Jews. For Peter this was another "Born Again" moment.

1) Like everything else in our lives, the spiritual journey also begins at birth. We must realise therefore that when we are born our spirit is agnostic. In other words, we do not know if there is a God or not.
2) therefore when we believe in the exsistence of God and that He created all things we are "born again" in the spirit as a believer.
3) after that we become religious persons able to see the kingdom of God, that is to say that we know what our character and behaviour should be like: but aless we repent and receive the Holy Spirit we will not be able to enter it, for Jesus said “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Jesus’ words can also be understood to say; unless one is converted and repents he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.)
to my knowledge there is no other "Born Again and again and again" moments as you say

 

[Justin Thyme]

to my knowledge there is no other "Born Again and again and again" moments as you say

Born again was a metaphor Jesus used for becoming a new person. Peter's vision of God telling him to eat all the unclean animals and his subsequent visit with Corneleus was a turning point in Peter's life, changing him from a xenophobe to someone accepting of people from other cultures as his equal and capable of being brothers and sisters in Christ. What I'm getting at is that the story of Peter and Cornelius is more about the conversion of Peter and his growth in the Spirit than it is about Cornelius and his conversion to Christianity.

 

[free spirit]

Born again was a metaphor Jesus used for becoming a new person. Peter's vision of God telling him to eat all the unclean animals and his subsequent visit with Corneleus was a turning point in Peter's life, changing him from a xenophobe to someone accepting of people from other cultures as his equal and capable of being brothers and sisters in Christ.

Peter was already an apostle he did not need to be converted, but he (and all of us) needed to be told that the time had come for the Gentiles to be included in the church "the body of Christ" and that all food was clean.

What I'm getting at is that the story of Peter and Cornelius is more about the conversion of Peter and his growth in the Spirit than it is about Cornelius and his conversion to Christianity.

I cannot understand were you get that from, for Peter was allready sanctified and in service for the Lord, he only needed to expand his preaching to the Gentiles because Gerusalem and the surround districts had been fully evangelised. In other words the time had come for the rest of humanity to hear the gospel.

 

[diosangpastol]

So far, I do.



By following Christ.




Basically I signed a membership card, but now we are talking two different things.

Christ's Church is not an earthly organization like the Rotarians or the United Methodist Church. Christ's Church is the collection of the followers of Christ. Folks can follow Christ without understanding that is who they are following if they are displaying Christlike qualities. Jesus said we are known by our fruits. If I see someone acting like Christ taught us to act and doing so out of their heart rather than to seek some reward I have to view them as a brother or sister in Christ, regardless of their stated religious affiliation. They are in the body of Christ.

What you did is to decapitate the Body of Christ. You separated Jesus Christ, the head, from the Church, which is His body (Eph 1:22-23; Col 1:24). Unless Jesus' head is indeed somehow separated from His Body, then when one is following the Body, one is following the Head, Jesus Christ. So, to follow the Church, is to follow Christ, unless you believe that the Church Jesus Christ founded and gave authority to can lead someone away from Christ. You have developed a false dichotomy between Jesus and the Church. As if one can follow Jesus without following Jesus' Body, and as if one can follow Jesus' Body without following Jesus. You have rent asunder what God has joined together.

So, according to you, becoming a Christian is signing a membership card.

 

[Justin Thyme]

I cannot understand were you get that from, for Peter was allready sanctified and in service for the Lord, he only needed to expand his preaching to the Gentiles because Gerusalem and the surround districts had been fully evangelised. In other words the time had come for the rest of humanity to hear the gospel.

Even though Peter was sanctified and in service for the Lord he was still growing as a Christian, just as is proper and as we all should be doing. Read the story again. Look hard at the theme. This is a story of God blessing a man, Peter, with tolerance where there was once intolerance. Peter now understood that a Gentile didn't first have to become a Jew before coming to the Lord. God is the God of all mankind.

 

[Justin Thyme]

What you did is to decapitate the Body of Christ.

I'm not following you. What did I do that makes you belive I decapitated the Body of Christ?

So, according to you, becoming a Christian is signing a membership card.

No, I signed a membership card to belong to the UMC. Acknowledging my sins, repenting and seeking forgiveness through God's grace is what made me a Christian.

 

[free spirit]

Even though Peter was sanctified and in service for the Lord he was still growing as a Christian, just as is proper and as we all should be doing. Read the story again. Look hard at the theme. This is a story of God blessing a man, Peter, with tolerance where there was once intolerance. Peter now understood that a Gentile didn't first have to become a Jew before coming to the Lord. God is the God of all mankind.

You are seen in that more tham I, and Yes God is God of all mankind but he has appointed a man Jesus by whom we must be saved: therefore no Jesus no salvation. other than that I am glad that I am not the judge, but if they want to be my brothers and sisters they first must accept the Lord as their saviour as we read the following scriptures.
ACTS 13:38-49
"38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through him everyone who believes is freed from all things of the flesh, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
40 Take heed therefore, so that the things spoken of in the prophets may not come upon you:
41 Behold, you scoffers and marvel, and perish, for I am accomplishing a work in your days, a work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.
42 And as Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who speaking to them were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said. It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first, since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 For thus the Lord has commanded us. I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through whole region."

ACTS:17-22-31,
"22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said. Men of Athens I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription. To an unknown God.
What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heavens and earth, he does not dwell in temple made with hands,
25 neither is he served by human hand, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all life and breath and all things;
26 and he made from one every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us;
28 For in him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said. For we also are his offspring.
29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone,
an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent.
31 because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead."

 

[diosangpastol]

I'm not following you. What did I do that makes you belive I decapitated the Body of Christ?.

You separated Christ from His body, the Church. You follow Christ as a Christian and yet you disregard His Body which is the Church.

No, I signed a membership card to belong to the UMC. Acknowledging my sins, repenting and seeking forgiveness through God's grace is what made me a Christian.

you just said you signed a membership card to join the UMC? Acknowledging sins.....etc... is what makes you a good Chrisian not how you became a Christian.

 

[ellenjanuary]

You separated Christ from His body, the Church. You follow Christ as a Christian and yet you disregard His Body which is the Church.

As he knew would come to pass. In the garden, one disciple sought to preserve the moment that was Jesus, and restrict the momentum of the coming Christ; even though the act was one of love, Jesus scolded Peter by saying, "get behind me, Satan" Peter, the future Rock upon which the Church stands; the many holding to the comfort of the Presence of the Lord. The Christ, taking the step we all soon must; give up - everything - and take up the cross...

Which is to say, I'm jiggy with it; no one is ever "not a Christian," just as no one is ever not "image of god." But in the real world, of course; the "member" outcast by "peer group" is the one who...

 

[Duck]

Okay, it was a toss-up between putting it here or the Christianity DIR. I chose here because I'd like some suggestions from non-Christians as to what the person in question is.

Ok, so I know a gal who calls herself Christian. However, within her beliefs, she doesn't believe:

in the Biblical God ("and if he was real, he'd be NUTS.") She does believe in God, but not from the Bible, even approaching it as metaphorical
the Bible ("full of myths, and outdated rules")
in Heaven or Hell (reincarnation)
Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, or performed miracles
Jesus was the Son of God any more than we are as humans
Trust Paul, at all
The virgin Mary was a virgin
in churches as useful
in the Trinity


She's said she is a Christian, though, just different-thinking.

So, when is someone not a Christian? Can someone not believe in ALL these, and still be Christian (to you)? Would this lady most likely be?

I know you don't need to believe ALL of these, btw, but I'm wondering where the 'disbelief' line is?

I tend to accept at face value the self designation of folks. Someone says they are christian, they are christian. Some one says they are straight, they are straight (until such time as I catch them in bed with the same sex, actually doing the nasty).