When Vivekananda perfomed Kumari Puja on a Muslim girl worshipping her as the Divine Mother...

[Aupmanyav]

If you do not bother then why pass judgement on what other theistic hindus do and worship.

Indian actor Amitabh Bachchan had recounted of how he tied a string in a sufi shrine as part of their rituals at the beginning of his career, which proved auspicious to him.

Liberal sufism pervaded kashmiri culture at that point of time, as opposed to the extremist culture at present over there.

That is not what all I said, Ajay. I said:

I do not bother. On the contrary I like it. I may be an atheist, but our culture/philosophy is the same. I like to see it strengthened.

I am still a staunch orthodox Hindu of 'advaita' kind, that is why I am an atheist.

I clearly understand what superstitious people or people in show business do, I do not find it surprising. But I am not one to believe that. Kashmiri Hindus had the taste of Sufism and later had to leave their homeland. Be careful of deceit, the deceivers always talk sweet.

 

[ajay0]

That is not what all I said, Ajay. I said:I am still a staunch orthodox Hindu of 'advaita' kind.

But you have also been subjected to intense criticism in this and other forums for your faulty and defective understanding of Advaita. More than defending advaita, you might actually be spreading misunderstanding of advaita and doing harm to its cause.

I clearly understand what superstitious people or people in show business do, I do not find it surprising. But I am not one to believe that. Kashmiri Hindus had the taste of Sufism and later had to leave their homeland. Be careful of deceit, the deceivers talk sweet.

Sufism is known for its liberality all over the world and they too have been victims of islamic terrorism as well. The issue is not sufism but extremism of the wahabbi or salafi kind.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have read his entire writings. Have it with me and read often.

I read it 45 years ago ... the 4 books. Can't remember a thing, lol.

 

[stvdv]

But you have already given the one side. So I am giving the other.

Very good. But you know I kind of have trouble finding correct translations. You helped me out with verse 5:51. I prefer important things in 1 verse

 

[stvdv]

I rarely go 'all in' on anyone. I do wish I would have gone to the historical shrine here in Canada called Vivekenanda's cottage a few years back. Here's the article in Hinduism Today to commemorate an anniversary.

Hinduism Today Magazine

Thanks for sharing; I never read it. I liked these ones:
1): Explaining how he could use "photographic memory"
2): Him asking a master: "Do you believe in God, sir?". "Yes" he replied. "Can you prove it?". "Yes". "And How?"....etc....

And that was only the first 10% of the article.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But you have also been subjected to intense criticism in this and other forums for your faulty and defective understanding of Advaita. More than defending advaita, you might actually be spreading misunderstanding of advaita and doing harm to its cause.

Sufism is known for its liberality all over the world and they too have been victims of islamic terrorism as well. The issue is not sufism but extremism of the wahabbi or salafi kind.

Just remember that I have 6095 likes today. You are the one who has a problem with me and NO ONE ELSE. I do not care about that. I am happy in the forum and liked by a few. Sure, I have my views. If they do not match with yours, how does it matter to me?

Sufism may have its 1001 good qualities, but as far as I am concerned, we lost a good number of Hindus to sufis. Today, many of them work for Pakistan, IS or other extremist organizations. I am not an admirer of sufis. Their world love ended in acceptance of the Islamic God. If sufis are now victims of extremism, it makes no difference to me. My first concern is for Hinduism. To mix Paramarthika with Vyavaharika is delusion. These are two different worlds.

 

[stvdv]

Just remember that I have 6095 likes today

My Master always said "Be Happy, Others will be happy, All will be happy". "God is Happy"

So for sure 6095 likes is very good. You made many people happy. Me also. Even if we don't agree on everything

 

[ajay0]

Just remember that I have 6095 likes today. You are the one who has a problem with me and NO ONE ELSE. I do not care about that. I am happy in the forum and liked by a few. Sure, I have my views. If they do not match with yours, how does it matter to me?

Likes and dislikes does not determine truth or falsehood. Many people like Hitler then and now, but that does not mean that he is on the side of truth. Same goes for bin laden. Many of Ram Rahim Singh's disciples staged riots after he was arrested because of intense liking for him but that does not mean he is on the side of truth.

As Goethe stated, "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."

Sufism may have its 1001 good qualities, but as far as I am concerned, we lost a good number of Hindus to sufis. Today, many of them work for Pakistan, IS or other extremist organizations. I am not an admirer of sufis. Their world love ended in acceptance of the Islamic God. If sufis are now victims of extremism, it makes no difference to me. My first concern is for Hinduism. To mix Paramarthika with Vyavaharika is delusion. These are two different worlds.

But is Hinduism an ideal religion that provides justice to each and every Hindu. Many dalits have converted to Buddhism and islam recently in protest against discrimination against them by Hindu fundamentalists.

Also association with sufism is a sort of tradition in Hinduism and the other dharmic religion Sikhism. Guru Nanak's closest disciple was a sufi called Mardana, and there are sufi verses and saints in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The Hindu king Chattrapati Shivaji had a sufi guide called Yakut Baba.

Ramakrishna worshipped the islamic God after being taught the same by a sufi guru as part of his study of all religions. Shirdi Sai Baba was a sufi sage now worshipped in a Hindu temple by brahmins and Hindus themselves.

The Indian writer Vaikom Muhammad Basheer have commented on the similarities between "Anal Haq" ( stated by Mansur Al Hallaj) and Aham Brahmasmi the Upanishad Mahāvākya which means I am Brahman.

Anal Haq - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

But is Hinduism an ideal religion that provides justice to each and every Hindu. Many dalits have converted to Buddhism and islam recently in protest against discrimination against them by Hindu fundamentalists.

Also association with sufism is a sort of tradition in Hinduism and the other dharmic religion Sikhism. Guru Nanak's closest disciple was a sufi called Mardana, and there are sufi verses and saints in the Guru Granth Sahib.

The Hindu king Chattrapati Shivaji had a sufi guide called Yakut Baba.
Ramakrishna worshipped the islamic God after being taught the same by a sufi guru as part of his study of all religions. Shirdi Sai Baba was a sufi sage now worshipped in a Hindu temple by brahmins and Hindus themselves.
The Indian writer Vaikom Muhammad Basheer have commented on the similarities between "Anal Haq" ( stated by Mansur Al Hallaj) and Aham Brahmasmi the Upanishad Mahāvākya which means I am Brahman.
Anal Haq - Wikipedia

I do not need Yakut Baba, Sai Baba or Vaikom Mohammad Basheer. For me Buddha and Sankara are enough. As I said, it is wrong to mix Paramarthika and Vyavahrika. I am not concerned with Sikhism. Sure they are one of the major religions of India. But as I said, my first concern is Hinduism. If dalits have converted to other religions, I do not blame them. We do need to put our house right. But at the same time, kindly do not forget the unlimited facilities that the Indian Constitution provides to dalits. There is no other 'Affirmative Action Program' in the world which is as strong as what we have in India.

 

[stvdv]

As Goethe stated, "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."

The best is "ignorance inaction"

 

[stvdv]

Story below explains to me why Vivekananda saw LOVE in the Muslim girl of 4 years

He mixed with Muslims, Buddhists, Jains and outcastes and hiked high into the Himalayas. One day, half-starved and sick, he fell unconscious. A Muslim found him and nursed him back to health. Vivekananda never forgot the man
[From: Hinduism Today Magazine]

Vivekananda put in practise:
"There is one religion, the religion of Love"
"There is one caste, the caste of humanity"

I just love Vivekananda. Not only words of LOVE, but proving LOVE in practise
[I believe embracing the above 2 teachings would be a big step forward to world-peace]

 

[ajay0]

I do not need Yakut Baba, Sai Baba or Vaikom Mohammad Basheer.

Yakut Baba lived in Shivaji's time and was a spiritual mentor of his. Shirdi Sai Baba is worshipped by many theistic Hindus in India.

Vaikom Muhammad Basheer through his short story emphasized the similarities between 'Anal Haq' of sufism and 'Aham Brahmasmij' of the upanishads. He seems to have a better understanding of Advaita than most so-called Hindus themselves.

For me Buddha and Sankara are enough. As I said, it is wrong to mix Paramarthika and Vyavahrika.

Those who have improperly understood Paramathika will wrongly interpret Vyavaharika as well, imho, and create erroneous acts in the process.

If dalits have converted to other religions, I do not blame them. We do need to put our house right. But at the same time, kindly do not forget the unlimited facilities that the Indian Constitution provides to dalits. There is no other 'Affirmative Action Program' in the world which is as strong as what we have in India.

But let us also not forget that atrocities and human rights violations against the dalits are still prevalent in India, and seems to be rising in BJP ruled states.

It is Now Official, BJP Ruled States Outdo Others in Crime against Dalits

If basic human rights are violated, human beings will convert to better humanistic religions than seek the facilities in the Indian constitution.

50 Dalit families protest injustice, 'shun' Hinduism in Uttar Pradesh | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

Low-caste Dalits converting to Buddhism in droves as BJP policies divide India - The Express Tribune

 

[Srivijaya]

An insightful article on Swami Vivekananda performing Kumari puja on a muslim girl in Kashmir in 1898. This was in accordance with the Shakta belief that all females are manifestations of the Divine mother, and their worship bestows auspiciousness and blessings on the devotees.

A touching account of its times but unlikely to happen in today's 'religious' environment.

 

[Srivijaya]

Low-caste Dalits converting to Buddhism in droves as BJP policies divide India - The Express Tribune

"The form of Buddhism they had converted to is called Ambedkarite Buddhism,"

Whilst I can appreciate that it may help them, this kind of Buddhism has little to do with what Buddha taught. I hope they use it as a stepping stone to get to the authentic teachings.

 

[ajay0]

A touching account of its times but unlikely to happen in today's 'religious' environment.

That is true to a large extent. It also demarcates an essential difference between religion and spirituality.

People have become more religious than spiritual and have become identified with divisive religious nationalism which is more politics than spirituality.

"The form of Buddhism they had converted to is called Ambedkarite Buddhism,"

Whilst I can appreciate that it may help them, this kind of Buddhism has little to do with what Buddha taught. I hope they use it as a stepping stone to get to the authentic teachings.

It has become a vital stepping stone for socio-economic betterment, which would create the foundation for spiritual upliftement as well later on.

Dalits who converted to Buddhism better off in literacy and well-being

 

[Srivijaya]

People have become more religious than spiritual and have become identified with divisive religious nationalism which is more politics than spirituality.

Absolutely.

It has become a vital stepping stone for socio-economic betterment, which would create the foundation for spiritual upliftement as well later on.

Dalits who converted to Buddhism better off in literacy and well-being

Great result. Anything that breaks the cycle of oppression and helps people fulfill their potential is welcome. Sometimes a system is so broken, that the best thing to do is walk away from it and create your own.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yakut Baba lived in Shivaji's time and was a spiritual mentor of his. Shirdi Sai Baba is worshipped by many theistic Hindus in India. Vaikom Muhammad Basheer through his short story emphasized the similarities between 'Anal Haq' of sufism and 'Aham Brahmasmij' of the upanishads. He seems to have a better understanding of Advaita than most so-called Hindus themselves.

Those who have improperly understood Paramathika will wrongly interpret Vyavaharika as well, imho, and create erroneous acts in the process.

But let us also not forget that atrocities and human rights violations against the dalits are still prevalent in India, and seems to be rising in BJP ruled states.

As I said, Yakut, Shirdi or Basheer, I have no need for them. I also do not see their need for any Hindu.

As for what is the correct view of Parmarthika or Vyavaharika, different people may have different views. Just as you do not think that my view is correct, I too do not think that your view is correct. I think it is very superstitious. We should not always be walking on clouds.

As for crimes against dalits, the people are being arrested. The law will decide their fate. Sure, things take a long time in India. But even then, Dara Singh in Odisha and Babu Bajrangi in Gujarat are in jail for all their life. Our police also is corrupt and inefficient. Many of them have been selected by previous regimes on considerations other than merit. If you notice, most rapes are by relatives, neighbors or people acquainted with the victim.There is a general social breakdown in India. Don't blame it all on BJP. Don't vote for BJP or Modi, vote for dynastic people like Rahul, Akhilesh, Laloo, Thakres, or Maya (money with her younger brother), Mamta (promoting her nephew), Siddaramaiyahs, or any other such riff-raff; if you think their 'khichari' rule will enable India to face the challenges that confront us. Your vote is your prerogative and that is the most that one can do. Also note that many crimes against dalits are perpetrated not by higher caste but by the 'in-between' castes (Other Backward Classes) - particularly in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, where they were ruling till recently.

 

[ajay0]

As I said, Yakut, Shirdi or Basheer, I have no need for them. I also do not see their need for any Hindu.

That is not your concern. When your own understanding of Hinduism is flawed and subjected to heavy criticism in this and other forums, there is obviously no need for you to point out to other Hindus what they should do, especially when you are a self-proclaimed atheist which itself goes against the norm in Hinduism.

As for what is the correct view of Parmarthika or Vyavaharika, different people may have different views. Just as you do not think that my view is correct, I too do not think that your view is correct. I think it is very superstitious. We should not always be walking on clouds.

But your view is criticized in this and other hindu forums whereas mine goes with what is being taught. I have never seen anyone so much criticized thus ! Obviously that itself indicates delusion, imho.

As for crimes against dalits, the people are being arrested. The law will decide their fate. Sure, things take a long time in India. But even then, Dara Singh in Odisha and Babu Bajrangi in Gujarat are in jail for all their life. Our police also is corrupt and inefficient. Many of them have been selected by previous regimes on considerations other than merit. If you notice, most rapes are by relatives, neighbors or people acquainted with the victim.There is a general social breakdown in India. Don't blame it all on BJP. Don't vote for BJP or Modi, vote for dynastic people like Rahul, Akhilesh, Laloo, Thakres, or Maya (money with her younger brother), Mamta (promoting her nephew), Siddaramaiyahs, or any other such riff-raff; if you think their 'khichari' rule will enable India to face the challenges that confront us. Your vote is your prerogative and that is the most that one can do. Also note that many crimes against dalits are perpetrated not by higher caste but by the 'in-between' castes (Other Backward Classes) - particularly in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, where they were ruling till recently.

But do notice in the article by the retired police officer that the crimes against the dalits have increased in bjp ruled states and outdo other states, reversing years of reform. This shows that it is a regressive movement doing more harm to Hindus than good.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is not your concern. When your own understanding of Hinduism is flawed and subjected to heavy criticism in this and other forums, there is obviously no need for you to point out to other Hindus what they should do, especially when you are a self-proclaimed atheist which itself goes against the norm in Hinduism.

But your view is criticized in this and other hindu forums whereas mine goes with what is being taught. I have never seen anyone so much criticized thus ! Obviously that itself indicates delusion, imho.

But do notice in the article by the retired police officer that the crimes against the dalits have increased in bjp ruled states and outdo other states, reversing years of reform. This shows that it is a regressive movement doing more harm to Hindus than good.

Atheism has never been a problem in Hinduism. There have always been atheist Hindus - Nireeshwaravada, Samkhya, Poorva Mimamsa. I am not the first atheist in Hinduism. I am stating my views. I understand, your views differ. Also, Hinduism does not make it mandatory for me to follow your views.

"Ekena mrit-pindena sarvam mrinmayamvijnātam syād vacārambhanam vikāro nāmadheyam mrittikety eva satyam."
"Mrittikety eva satyam." That is 'advaita'. There can be no second (a God) in 'advaita'.

Criticism is good. I have not said anything beyond what the books say. If you are talking of chauvinistic, retrograde Hindu forums, I care two hoots for them. I have not visited them for years. They would not learn. They are Abrahamic in their thinking. Debate and variety of views are an essential part of Hinduism, otherwise it is no different from Abrahamic religions. Good that Religious Forums is not one such.

No rules have been changed as yet, though they should be changed. When will the time come when we will not think about castes but of economic situation of people irrespective of caste and religion? Why should the poor Muslims and Christians not be entitled for the same benefits or even the forward castes if they are in such a situation? They too are citizens of India. Why restrict the benefits to just Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhist? It was a retrograde step when Congress told the Supreme Court that reservations will be based only on castes and religion and it was only to garner votes. As for the views of a retired police officer, every one has the right to hold and declare his/her views. He is welcome to say what he wants to say.

 

[ajay0]

Atheism has never been a problem in Hinduism. There have always been atheist Hindus - Nireeshwaravada, Samkhya, Poorva Mimamsa. I am not the first atheist in Hinduism. I am stating my views. I understand, your views differ. Also, Hinduism does not make it mandatory for me to follow your views.

Atheism is disparaged in traditional hinduism. The charvaks were quite clearly criticised in orthodox hindu philosophies . Samkhya never refers to God, and that is why it is considered as atheistic by some but the fact is that the issue is not considered in samkhya.

Poorva Mimamsa accepts the authority of the vedas , believes in the gods, and is based on the vedic rituals

Atheism is definitely not the norm in traditional Hinduism.

Also, Hinduism does not make it mandatory for me to follow your views.

If that is so, then theistic hindus obviously does not have to follow your views as well in worshipping Shirdi sai or sufi sages.

"Ekena mrit-pindena sarvam mrinmayamvijnātam syād vacārambhanam vikāro nāmadheyam mrittikety eva satyam."
"Mrittikety eva satyam." That is 'advaita'. There can be no second (a God) in 'advaita'.

Poor understanding of advaita as usual.

'No second' does not mean God, but no identification with any impermanent phenomena leading to likes and dislikes, cravings and aversions, with the incessant thinking and emoting process that blurs the Self or Awareness.

Criticism is good. I have not said anything beyond what the books say. If you are talking of chauvinistic, retrograde Hindu forums, I care two hoots for them. I have not visited them for years. They would not learn. They are Abrahamic in their thinking. Debate and variety of views are an essential part of Hinduism, otherwise it is no different from Abrahamic religions. Good that Religious Forums is not one such.

The Hindu forums have quality scholars who are capable of quality criticism as well. This is why you have not visited them for years and instead display your views over here where there are not much Hindu scholars, and thereby easily get away with it. The situation can however change drastically if some adept Hindu scholars decided to be regular members in religious forums.

No rules have been changed as yet, though they should be changed. When will the time come when we will not think about castes but of economic situation of people irrespective of caste and religion? Why should the poor Muslims and Christians not be entitled for the same benefits or even the forward castes if they are in such a situation? They too are citizens of India. Why restrict the benefits to just Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhist? It was a retrograde step when Congress told the Supreme Court that reservations will be based only on castes and religion and it was only to garner votes. As for the views of a retired police officer, every one has the right to hold and declare his/her views. He is welcome to say what he wants to say.

The focus here is on the atrocities and human rights violations that the scheduled castes and tribes of India has been subjected to in BJP ruled states, and not reservations.