When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

[rosends]

I can see your hope ... but you probably didn't understand my point. Read my post again ...

It has happened, AND MANY TIMES, that the Jews during all their expectation about the King of God have accepted the wrong one as Messiah. Do you know all the stories of false Jewish Messiahs and how many have been duped along with them? I can mention a few if you wish; their stories are very interesting.

What makes you believe that the next one yes will be the one God chose? Who is going to decide that among the Jews around the world? The president of Israel? His opponents? Any other Jewish or Israelite party that nobody knows about but that continues to exert pressure on the modern nation? The Jews around the world, the ones in Wall Street?

And where do they get that what modern Jews decide is what Jehovah has decided?

Actually, in each case of a messianic aspirant was tested and failed. Bar Kochva, Shabtai Tzvi and others -- there were expectations which were not met and though people followed the aspirant (generally a small number) the person in question did not fulfill what was required. Those requirements are based in pretty clear verses that have been accepted and codified since before Jesus' birth.

 

[dybmh]

I do prefer my posts to be quoted in context.

How did I take it out of context? Is there something in your post which qualified "clearly indicated"? You didn't mean "clearly indicated"?

It is a logical inference that if the nation rejects the Messiah in general and only a minority accepts him, then only that minority would be approved by God. Similarly in this conversation about Eliah being worried about how many men in Israel were still loyal to Jehovah in Jezabel times.

Ah. So it's not clearly indicated, it's inferred. That's different.

Similarly in this conversation about Eliah being worried about how many men in Israel were still loyal to Jehovah in Jezabel times.

1 Kings 19:18 " (...) I still have left 7,000 in Israel, all whose knees have not bent down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

Do you know the story? It is typical of the nation of Israel in its whole biblical history.

PS: I say Israel in general; I know Israel became two kingdoms after Solomon's death. I study the Scriptures, remember.

Sure. There is no doubt the Jewish people as described by the prophets had a lot of problems. Those problems were following after other gods and false prophets. So, it makes sense to be on the lookout for people claiming to be prophets but preaching a different religion or starting up their own religion.

 

[dybmh]

I can see your hope ... but you probably didn't understand my point. Read my post again ...

OK, I'll go back and reread it.

It has happened, AND MANY TIMES, that the Jews during all their expectation about the King of God have accepted the wrong one as Messiah. Do you know all the stories of false Jewish Messiahs and how many have been duped along with them? I can mention a few if you wish; their stories are very interesting.

Well, I know about a few of the famous ones. Yes, it makes me sad. But, it's not like everyone had agreed that these were the future king. And honestly, the smart thing to do is learn from these mistakes. And the modern claimants departed from Torah significantly, and seemed to be starting their own religion. That's something to look out for.

What makes you believe that the next one yes will be the one God chose? Who is going to decide that among the Jews around the world? The president of Israel? His opponents? Any other Jewish or Israelite party that nobody knows about but that continues to exert pressure on the modern nation? The Jews around the world, the ones in Wall Street?

Well, if I'm correct about what I see as a logical inference of prophecy, the Jewish people will be united. It will be the greatest miracle anyone has ever witnessed. Undeniable proof. Can you even imagine it, all the Jews in agreement, inspite of our past, inspite of living in the modern world?

And where do they get that what modern Jews decide is what Jehovah has decided?

Well, like I said, it'll be a miracle. It's not something I can describe.

 

[Eli G]

Actually, in each case of a messianic aspirant was tested and failed. Bar Kochva, Shabtai Tzvi and others -- there were expectations which were not met and though people followed the aspirant (generally a small number) (...)

I am not sure that what you say is the case with all the Jewish false messiahs that have appeared. In fact, some of them have been highly endorsed by some major Jewish authorities...although in reality the Jewish community is so divided that I still don't know what the real authority would be to decide something like that.

Obviously, regardless of whether a specific Jewish authority is considered higher, there will be those who are not going to consider it that way or accept its decisions on certain things. Precisely for this reason we know that the Jews are on their own; if Jehovah really was with any of modern Jews factions, he would have already spoken without any Jew doubting what the origin of that authority would be: one that God himself would endorse and not depending on what humans decided.

(...) the person in question did not fulfill what was required. Those requirements are based in pretty clear verses that have been accepted and codified since before Jesus' birth.

That is precisely what this topic is about. Do you want to tell us about those specific texts and how modern Jews expect the next Jewish messiah to fulfill them?

 

[Eli G]

(...) Sure. There is no doubt the Jewish people as described by the prophets had a lot of problems. Those problems were following after other gods and false prophets. So, it makes sense to be on the lookout for people claiming to be prophets but preaching a different religion or starting up their own religion.

Well, the Jews throughout their Biblical history showed a hatred of Jehovah's prophets. Their kings mistreated them, their religious leaders persecuted them, killed them,... They did not like what they said even if it was in the name of Jehovah; They did not believe them, although the word of Jehovah through them was always fulfilled.

Did you know that John the Baptist and Jesus also acted as Jewish prophets, and the Jews' rejection of them is no different than their rejection of others before them?

Jesus, for example, predicted the destruction of the temple of his day... haven't you read it? One of his prophecies warned his Jewish followers to flee Jerusalem because it would be destroyed at that time again (Matt. 24:15-22). Didn't you know those prophecies of Jesus to the Jews of his time? When Jesus was alive, his disciples were Jews...and they were for some time until the gates of the kingdom were opened to non-Jews.

Matt. 24:1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

Deut. 18:17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.
20 “‘If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’

Do you think that by applying that divine criteria on the prophets who speak in Jehovah's name to Jesus Christ, he would qualify as a true prophet of Jehovah?

 

[Colt]

Nope, sorry. It's all about devotion to God.

God created in the image of the writings of those who see themselves their nation as chosen.

 

[rosends]

I am not sure that what you say is the case with all the Jewish false messiahs that have appeared.

Don't worry -- I am.

In fact, some of them have been highly endorsed by some major Jewish authorities

Sure...until they didn't live up to specific expectations. That was the process of testing.

although in reality the Jewish community is so divided that I still don't know what the real authority would be to decide something like that.

You happen to be exactly right! Which is why the classical sources make the expectations public and visible and not subject to disagreement. The fact that there is disagreement is, itself, one of the tests.

Precisely for this reason we know that the Jews are on their own;

You may know that, but we Jews know that you are wrong. Here's to knowing stuff!

if Jehovah really was with any of modern Jews factions, he would have already spoken without any Jew doubting what the origin of that authority would be: one that God himself would endorse and not depending on what humans decided.

I don't follow your logic. Even in biblical times, when God was obvious and manifest, there were those who doubted. And today, I don't think there is any group so monolithic that it lacks even a single doubter.

That is precisely what this topic is about. Do you want to tell us about those specific texts and how modern Jews expect the next Jewish messiah to fulfill them?

sure -- start here Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

 

[rosends]

Did you know that John the Baptist and Jesus also acted as Jewish prophets, and the Jews' rejection of them is no different than their rejection of others before them?

Not according to Judaism they didn't. I think you have an underlying misunderstanding of what a Jewish prophet is and does, and when prophecy ceased. It might be easier if you ask instead of assuming you can speak for Judaism.

 

[Eli G]

(...) Do you want to tell us about those specific texts and how modern Jews expect the next Jewish messiah to fulfill them?

No?

I think that when Jews start arguing about why they think Jesus did not fulfill some of their expectations as Messiah, they are really not sure which messianic prophecies the Messiah they expect should really fulfill when he arrives.

Actually, this part of a previous post of a modern Jewish person caught my attention:

(...) the person in question did not fulfill what was required. Those requirements are based in pretty clear verses that have been accepted and codified since before Jesus' birth.

Tell us: what are those "pretty clear verses that have been accepted and codified since before Jesus' birth" and how do you expect the new Messiah will fulfill those specific requirements based on those verses.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Eli G]

Not according to Judaism they didn't. I think you have an underlying misunderstanding of what a Jewish prophet is and does, and when prophecy ceased. It might be easier if you ask instead of assuming you can speak for Judaism.

Which "Judaism"? The one professed by those who persecuted the prophets of Jehovah?

The Scriptures contain God's criteria about that point and all others that I need to know. You may think that I need extra-Jewish documents or traditional rabbis teachings to know what Jehovah has to say. I don't, and you neither, believe me.

 

[rosends]

No?

Are you answering yourself?

I think that when Jews start arguing about why they think Jesus did not fulfill some of their expectations as Messiah, they are really not sure which messianic prophecies the Messiah they expect should really fulfill when he arrives.

That's nice. We have very clear verses. When we argue, we often do it as a thought exercise or about specific little parts, not underlying ideas and principles.

Tell us: what are those "pretty clear verses that have been accepted and codified since before Jesus' birth" and how do you expect the new Messiah will fulfill those specific requirements based on those verses.

Thanks in advance.

So you didn't look at the link I provided which had the verses listed?
OK, I'll cut and paste them for you

"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

-----
Another website writes
"The messianic age will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2,4). Hatred, intolerance, and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11,6-9); others like Maimonides, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity. What is agreed on by all is a very optimistic picture of what real people can be like in this real world, the like of which has never been seen before.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11,11-12; Jeremiah 23,8; 30,3; Hosea 3,4-5), and the law of the Jubilee as well as the rest of the special agricultural laws in the Torah will be reinstated.

In the messianic age, the whole world will recognize YHWH, the LORD God of Israel, as the only true God, and the Torah will be seen as the only true religion (Isaiah 2,3; 11,10; Micah 4,2-3; Zechariah 14,9). There will be no more murder, robbery, competition, or jealousy."

 

[rosends]

Which "Judaism"? The one professed by those who persecuted the prophets of Jehovah?

There isn't more than one.

The Scriptures contain God's criteria about that point and all others that I need to know. You may think that I need extra-Jewish documents or traditional rabbis teachings to know what Jehovah has to say. I don't, and you neither, believe me.

that's a lovely opinion. How's your Hebrew?

And the claim is suspect when you wouldn't even read the website I referenced.

 

[Eli G]

My Hebrew is good enough for what I need it and if I need more, I can look for it, cause I got the means for it. Or: did anyone tell you that modern Hebrew is biblical Hebrew? Only a few years ago some modern Hebrew became the national language in Israel; before that, most of them spoke Arabian and other languages. They had to learn the modern Hebrew (a modern compilation and new inventions) ... like I have to do. Didn't you know that part of the history of the modern Hebrew language in Israel?

Why do you think that by the time the Jews had returned to their land, Jerusalem and its walls had been rebuilt, the city repopulated, Jehovah's temple rebuilt, and priestly services reestablished... even so Jehovah says that a special possession is going to be formed in the future? To talk about a special property in the future, he should first reject the one that already existed and seemed to be stable, don't you think?

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

Obviously, 5 centuries after Malachi when the city and the temple were destroyed again, it was the moment in which Jehovah began to produce that special possession, and now they were no longer just genetic descendants of Abraham, but people from all over the world who would come to form his people, that special property that he said he would have through Malachi.

Here some Jews in the first century are talking ... not modern Jews:

Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had those who preach him in city after city, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”

 

[Eli G]

(...) We have very clear verses. When we argue, we often do it as a thought exercise or about specific little parts, not underlying ideas and principles.

So you didn't look at the link I provided which had the verses listed?
OK, I'll cut and paste them for you (...)

Hehehe, no. We, in the forum, expect more of you than posting links which most of us won't visit. But posting those verses you said you know is up to you, of course.

 

[Colt]

but because he left no writings, you have no proof that he was a chosen individual. You are choosing to accept that, but choosing not to accept other statements.

Thats true, but I do have Urantia Book revelation which has the actual history of what happened. If accurate it validates the main figures in the OT as well as some of the history.

IMOP The OT has always seemed to me to be a document written by people who suffered from the false pride of self. Religious people trying over and over to explain why things weren't living up to their own false expectations. They rationalized why as Gods chosen people their luck just kept going bad. It speaks victimese.

In ways I'm sympathetic with the Jews in the typical debates with Christan's about the Messsiah and salvation etc. The scriptures clearly show that salvation was a matter of keeping Gods statutes, (according to their scripture) but then post-ascension Christianity claimed that Jesus was a final substitute sacrifice, that belief in him is the way of salvation. Judaism didn't have a concept that the Messiah was supposed to be killed as a final sin debt payment.

 

[dybmh]

Well, the Jews throughout their Biblical history showed a hatred of Jehovah's prophets. Their kings mistreated them, their religious leaders persecuted them, killed them,... They did not like what they said even if it was in the name of Jehovah; They did not believe them, although the word of Jehovah through them was always fulfilled.

Instead of debating these points, I'd like to focus on the present and the future. Currently, these prophets who were ignored, are no longer ignored. Their writing, their prophecy, has been maintained ( Thank God ). We can look back and learn. What does Isaiah say to look out for? Prophets who become "drunk" on power. What does Ezekiel say to watch out for? Prophets who profane the Sabbath, and not seperate between clean and unclean. Jeremiah has the best example. What does he say to look out for? Prophets who "assure people with a lie" and prophets who tell people "no evil will come to you if you follow me".

Did you know that John the Baptist and Jesus also acted as Jewish prophets, and the Jews' rejection of them is no different than their rejection of others before them?

I'm not sure that the reaction of the Jews in the gospels was the same as the reaction of the Jews to the prophets before them. As I said, my recollection of the gospel story is that Jesus was rejected for claiming to be God, for looking to be possessed, and for speaking in parables.

And I'll add to the list, not declaring that he came from Jehovah. When asked who sent you, Jesus refused to answer, correct? That's a pretty big red flag, can we agree on that? All he needed to do was answer, "I was sent by Jehovah God, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". This is how Jehovah wants to be known in all generations ( Exodus 3:15 ). If Jesus knew the scripture, and if he knew the rules, he would know, this is the only correct answer.

What is the answer Jesus gives? "You don't know me, you don't know my Father". That's not just a red flag, that is positive identification of a false prophet.

“In case a prophet or one who foretells by dreams arises in your midst and gives you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent about which he spoke to you comes true

It doesn't matter if he performs wonders.
It doesn't matter if the prophecy comes true.
​

while he is saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods,’ gods that you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’

The false prophet comes in the name of a god that you do not know.
Jesus says, "you don't know me, you don't know my Father"
​

You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer,

Don't listen to the false prophet.
​

for Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul.

The truth of the prophecy is a test.
The wonders and miracles are a test.
​

After Jehovah your God you should walk, him you should fear, his commandments you should keep, to his voice you should listen; he is the one you should serve, and to him you should hold fast.

Rejecting a false prophet is "following Jehovah".
​

This isn't rabbinic interpretation. This is direct word for word quoting from scripture. Isaiah says, watch out. Ezekiel says, watch out. Jeremiah says, watch out. It doesn't matter what Jews did in the past. This is NOW. We know things we didn't know then.

Maybe the Jewish people will never agree on who *IS* the future king. But we can certainly agree on who *ISN'T* the future king. Gratefully we have been given very clear instructions on how to identify the false prophet.

Jesus, for example, predicted the destruction of the temple of his day... haven't you read it? One of his prophecies warned his Jewish followers to flee Jerusalem because it would be destroyed at that time again (Matt. 24:15-22). Didn't you know those prophecies of Jesus to the Jews of his time? When Jesus was alive, his disciples were Jews...and they were for some time until the gates of the kingdom were opened to non-Jews.

Matt. 24:1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

For Jews, if the story is true, it's a test of faith.

Deut. 18:17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.
20 “‘If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’

Notice, "speaks a word in *MY NAME* that I did not command..." There's the loophole. And that answers why Jesus would not say, could not say, I came from Jehovah. If he did, his wonder workings and power of prophecy would have been revoked, and he would die. No immotal life for himself, no immortal life for his disciples. His mission would have been a failure.

Do you think that by applying that divine criteria on the prophets who speak in Jehovah's name to Jesus Christ, he would qualify as a true prophet of Jehovah?

No. definitely not. I have most certainly researched it. And I have nothing but love for Christians and believers in Christ. He might be your savior, he might be everything people say he was, except for the future Jewish king. For Jews, Christianity is a test of faith.

 

[dybmh]

God created in the image of the writings of those who see themselves their nation as chosen.

You're lifting up two verses in opposition to the entire rest of the story.

We were chosen for what? Persecution? Exile? Endless laws? Holocaust?

 

[rosends]

My Hebrew is good enough for what I need it and if I need more, I can look for it, cause I got the means for it.

Great -- what do you make of כי-ירחק ממך המקום, אשר יבחר יהוה אלהיך לשום שמו שם, וזבחת מבקרך ומצאנך אשר נתן יהוה לך, כאשר צויתך--ואכלת, בשעריך, בכל, אות נפשך ?

Or: did anyone tell you that modern Hebrew is biblical Hebrew?

Nope. There are a variety of dialects of Hebrew, many differentiated by era. You do know the difference between mishnaic and biblical, right?

Only a few years ago some modern Hebrew became the national language in Israel; before that, most of them spoke Arabian and other languages. They had to learn the modern Hebrew (a modern compilation and new inventions) ... like I have to do. Didn't you know that part of the history of the modern Hebrew language in Israel?

Before Ben Yehuda helped codify what we think of as modern hebrew, there still was a spoken and written Hebrew in certain communities. There were other languages as well (and the Aramaic taught was not the same as the spoken version either). I'm not sure what your point is. The issue isn't whether I know the history of Hebrew (I do) but whether you can understand teh subtleties of the language or rely on transl;ations to draw your conclusions.

Why do you think that by the time the Jews had returned to their land, Jerusalem and its walls had been rebuilt, the city repopulated, Jehovah's temple rebuilt, and priestly services reestablished

I thuink your grasp on history is incomplete. Are you talking after the exile post first destruction? Are you including the groups who never left? Are you talking about the initial rebuilding which was halted and then restarted? Which walls do you mean? The retaining walls? The walls of the city?

... even so Jehovah says that a special possession is going to be formed in the future? To talk about a special property in the future, he should first reject the one that already existed and seemed to be stable, don't you think?

Or are you talking about the second destruction, or the destruction even after that?

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

Do you mean
וְהָ֣יוּ לִ֗י אָמַר֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֔וֹת לַיּ֕וֹם אֲשֶׁ֥ר אֲנִ֖י עֹשֶׂ֣ה סְגֻלָּ֑ה וְחָמַלְתִּ֣י עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם כַּֽאֲשֶׁר֙ יַחְמֹ֣ל אִ֔ישׁ עַל־בְּנ֖וֹ הָעֹבֵ֥ד אֹתֽוֹ׃
There is nothing in the Hebrew that translates to "special property". Here is the Aramaic so you can see this to be true
וִיהוֹן קֳדָמַי אֲמַר יְיָ צְבָאוֹת לְיוֹמָא דִי אֲנָא עָתִיד לְמֶעְבַּד סְגֻלְתָּא וַאֲחוּס עֲלֵיהוֹן כְּמָא דַאֲחִיס גַבְרָא עַל בְּרֵיהּ דְפָלַח יָתֵיהּ

Obviously, 5 centuries after Malachi when the city and the temple were destroyed again, it was the moment in which Jehovah began to produce that special possession, and now they were no longer just genetic descendants of Abraham, but people from all over the world who would come to form his people, that special property that he said he would have through Malachi.

Closer to 4 centuries (312 bce to 70ce) and what you think is "obvious" isn't. It is your belief, and not one supported by text (cf
וְשַׁבְתֶּם֙ among other things)

Here some Jews in the first century are talking ... not modern Jews:

Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had those who preach him in city after city, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”

quoting from texts that are not valid is not persuasive.

 

[rosends]

Hehehe, no. We, in the forum, expect more of you than posting links which most of us won't visit. But posting those verses you said you know is up to you, of course.

"We in the forum" is a bit of an overblown claim to make from someone who has been here since June of 2022. We who have been here a little longer expect people to take responsibility for their learning and not be spoonfed.

 

[rosends]

Thats true, but I do have Urantia Book revelation which has the actual history of what happened. If accurate it validates the main figures in the OT as well as some of the history.

IMOP The OT has always seemed to me to be a document written by people who suffered from the false pride of self. Religious people trying over and over to explain why things weren't living up to their own false expectations. They rationalized why as Gods chosen people their luck just kept going bad. It speaks victimese.

In ways I'm sympathetic with the Jews in the typical debates with Christan's about the Messsiah and salvation etc. The scriptures clearly show that salvation was a matter of keeping Gods statutes, (according to their scripture) but then post-ascension Christianity claimed that Jesus was a final substitute sacrifice, that belief in him is the way of salvation. Judaism didn't have a concept that the Messiah was supposed to be killed as a final sin debt payment.

As long as you recognize that you are speaking through a particular theological lens that is no more persuasive to others than theirs is to you.