Where are the Dead?

[Hockeycowboy]

As I said before, since Adam sinned, Adam brought sin into the world. The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam.

The humans who descended from Adam have one nature which can choose to sin and one nature that can choose to do good.

That does not mean there were no humans BEFORE Adam. In other words, that does not mean that Adam was the first man who ever existed.
It only means that Adam was the first man who brought sin into the world.

Everyone living in this age is a descendant of Adam since they can trace their ancestry back to Adam.

In short, I believe Adam was a Prophet, the Prophet who inaugurated the Adamic Cycle of religion, also called the Cycle of Prophecy. The Adamic Cycle ended with Muhammad, who was the seal of the Prophets, since he was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion. Being "the Seal" did not mean there would be no more Prophets after Muhammad, as God will send Prophets to mankind as long as he exists.

Baha'is believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in a new Cycle of religion in 1844 AD, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, or the Baha'i Cycle, and that we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment since all the Bible prophecies have been or will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

Briefly, a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and epochs. There were many cycles of religion before the Adamic Cycle, since Prophets have been sent by God to humans from the beginning of human existence, which was approximately 200,000 years ago. No records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets, because of their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time. Moreover, such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam.

Was there sin as we know it before the days of Adam? That is an interesting question. Mankind might have sinned but perhaps God only started holding humans accountable for sin when Adam came into the world because mankind was not spiritually mature enough to be accountable before that.

You really went in-depth, thanks.

Now, to reply to one statement at a time:

As I said before, since Adam sinned, Adam brought sin into the world.

Yes, the Bible agrees with this: Romans 5:12…”Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Although this verse doesn’t specifically say Adam; when you couple it with the statement at Genesis 3:20, “And Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all the living”, obviously it was Adam, her only husband.

Think about Romans 5:12 again… it also gives us the reason we die: it’s due to sin. (see Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death.”)

The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam.

Hold on; you’re saying ‘attachment to the material world equals, ie., is the same as, sin’?

But this (the Earth) is where God put Adam. (All humans, for that matter.) It was intended by God to be perfect, ie., sinless. Jehovah God gave A&E perfect conditions to live in, the Garden of Eden.
Nothing sinful about that. Psalm 115:16 says: “The heavens are the heavens of Jehovah; But the earth hath he given to the children of men.” It’s a beautiful home!

Now if you mean improper attachment to certain desires, the Bible agrees: 1 John 2:15-17

The humans who descended from Adam have one nature which can choose to sin and one nature that can choose to do good.

Agreed.

Basically you’re speaking about Free Will (which is the ability for intelligent creatures to make good or bad choices).

The endowment (built-in ability) of free will, shows that Jehovah loves His intelligent creation: part of life’s enjoyment for each sentient individual, is our ability to be individuals, different from others.

Do you know that’s the same with spirit creatures? They have their own personalities, and some have made bad choices. Fostered improper desires. — John 8:44… “did not stand fast in the truth” ie., left the truth.

That does not mean there were no humans BEFORE Adam. In other words, that does not mean that Adam was the first man who ever existed.
It only means that Adam was the first man who brought sin into the world.

Since you said, “Everyone living in this age is a descendant of Adam since they can trace their ancestry back to Adam”, I don’t see why not.

The Bible writer Matthew quoted Jesus as saying at Matthew 19:4-6, regarding the institution of marriage: “ “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” ”
He was speaking about A&E, whom Jehovah created & brought together in the first marriage.
(To reason on: if these events didn’t happen, how would it have any bearing on real people? But we find marriage in every ancient culture on Earth! And modern…. It’s too bad that many people are currently moving away from that commitment. It’s hurting society.


Your further statements, regarding the cycles(which I’ve never of but find fascinating), I’ll have to do further research.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Best wishes,
HC

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As I said before, since Adam sinned, Adam brought sin into the world. The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam.

The humans who descended from Adam have one nature which can choose to sin and one nature that can choose to do good.

That does not mean there were no humans BEFORE Adam. In other words, that does not mean that Adam was the first man who ever existed.
It only means that Adam was the first man who brought sin into the world.

Everyone living in this age is a descendant of Adam since they can trace their ancestry back to Adam.

In short, I believe Adam was a Prophet, the Prophet who inaugurated the Adamic Cycle of religion, also called the Cycle of Prophecy. The Adamic Cycle ended with Muhammad, who was the seal of the Prophets, since he was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion. Being "the Seal" did not mean there would be no more Prophets after Muhammad, as God will send Prophets to mankind as long as he exists.

Baha'is believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in a new Cycle of religion in 1844 AD, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, or the Baha'i Cycle, and that we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment since all the Bible prophecies have been or will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

Briefly, a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and epochs. There were many cycles of religion before the Adamic Cycle, since Prophets have been sent by God to humans from the beginning of human existence, which was approximately 200,000 years ago. No records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets, because of their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time. Moreover, such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam.

Was there sin as we know it before the days of Adam? That is an interesting question. Mankind might have sinned but perhaps God only started holding humans accountable for sin when Adam came into the world because mankind was not spiritually mature enough to be accountable before that.

You really went in-depth, thanks.

Now, to reply to one statement at a time:

As I said before, since Adam sinned, Adam brought sin into the world.

Yes, the Bible agrees with this: Romans 5:12…”Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Although this verse doesn’t specifically say Adam; when you couple it with the statement at Genesis 3:20, “And Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all the living”, obviously it was Adam, her only husband.

Think about Romans 5:12 again… it also gives us the reason we die: it’s due to sin. (see Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death.”)

The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam.

Hold on; you’re saying ‘attachment to the material world equals, ie., is the same as, sin’?

But this (the Earth) is where God put Adam. (All humans, for that matter.) It was intended by God to be perfect, ie., sinless. Jehovah God gave A&E perfect conditions to live in, the Garden of Eden.
Nothing sinful about that. Psalm 115:16 says: “The heavens are the heavens of Jehovah; But the earth hath he given to the children of men.” It’s a beautiful home!

Now if you mean improper attachment to certain desires, the Bible agrees: 1 John 2:15-17

The humans who descended from Adam have one nature which can choose to sin and one nature that can choose to do good.

Agreed.

Basically you’re speaking about Free Will (which is the ability for intelligent creatures to make good or bad choices).

The endowment (built-in ability) of free will, shows that Jehovah loves His intelligent creation: part of life’s enjoyment for each sentient individual, is our ability to be individuals, different from others.

Do you know that’s the same with spirit creatures? They have their own personalities, and some have made bad choices. Fostered improper desires. — John 8:44… “did not stand fast in the truth” ie., left the truth.

That does not mean there were no humans BEFORE Adam. In other words, that does not mean that Adam was the first man who ever existed.
It only means that Adam was the first man who brought sin into the world.

Since you said, “Everyone living in this age is a descendant of Adam since they can trace their ancestry back to Adam”, I don’t see why not.

The Bible writer Matthew quoted Jesus as saying at Matthew 19:4-6, regarding the institution of marriage: “ “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” ”
He was speaking about A&E, whom Jehovah created & brought together in the first marriage.
(To reason on: if these events didn’t happen, how would it have any bearing on real people? But we find marriage in every ancient culture on Earth! And modern…. It’s too bad that many people are currently moving away from that commitment. It’s hurting society.


Your further statements, regarding the cycles (which I’ve never heard of but find fascinating), I’ll have to do further research.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Best wishes,
HC

 

[Hockeycowboy]

My belief stems from the Writings of Baha'u'llah who referred to Adam as a Prophet.

Ok, I was thinking the basis of your belief on Adam would be from Bahá’u’lláh & his writings. I guessed correctly.

However…

Baha'u'llah wrote that all the Prophets of God are in Heaven in what Baha'u'llah referred to as the Concourse on high, the realm of glory.

…why doesn’t he just say “Heaven” is the “Concourse on High”?

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

I don’t see where it calls the “Concourse on high” the same as “Heaven.”
Where is Adam mentioned? I don’t see it here. Must be another verse?

And the phrase, “inscrutable to all but God”, implies that it’s not understandable to people reading it.
Isn’t that the problem you have with the Bible?

Who are “Our favored angels”?


And who is meant by “My”, “We”, and “Our”? Do these pronouns, mean the Prophets? The singular one, “My”, is supposed to be who, then?

Look forward to your explanations.

(I don’t mean to put you on the spot. Feel free to ask me about my beliefs, I enjoy explaining them.)
If you prefer to talk privately in a Conversation, I’d be glad to.

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The living know that their physical bodies will die physically…

But then, that’s not what the verse says, is it?
It does not say, “The living know that their bodies will die”; it says, “The living know that they will die.”
It’s in perfect harmony with Genesis 3:19, where Jehovah tells Adam, “You will return to the ground…. For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”

Really, if humans who’ve died are indeed living another realm, why did Jesus promise a future resurrection? What’s the purpose? It wouldn’t be needed.

Almost every religion has some sort of immediate afterlife teaching.
To me, it just shows the extent of the ‘deception’ warned about in Revelation 12:9. Along with many other concepts in this world.

It won’t last forever.

Good night.

 

[Aupmanyav]

hat does not mean there were no humans BEFORE Adam.
In other words, that does not mean that Adam was the first man who ever existed.

I think Bahais do not believe in 'original sin'. Did Bahaollah or his progeny say anything about humans prior to Adam?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think Bahais do not believe in 'original sin'. Did Bahaollah or his progeny say anything about humans prior to Adam?

No, Baha'is do not believe in original sin. Yes, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha said that prophets existed before Adam, which means that humans also existed before Adam, since the Prophets come for the benefit of humans.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.​

​

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”​

​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173​

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the Bible agrees with this: Romans 5:12…”Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Although this verse doesn’t specifically say Adam; when you couple it with the statement at Genesis 3:20, “And Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all the living”, obviously it was Adam, her only husband.

Think about Romans 5:12 again… it also gives us the reason we die: it’s due to sin. (see Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death.”)

Romans 5
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. I believe that Romans 5:23 is referring to spiritual death, not physical death.

That verse means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is close to God.
That soul will be spiritually dead.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes.
That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not continued life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223​

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their body dies. A soul cannot die since it immortal. Only physical things die since they are mortal. The souls of people who are distant from God will not have eternal life, so they will not gain the rewards of the spiritual world. Although their soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they will be “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God. This separation from God can be equated with hell, which is s state of the soul, not a geographical location.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”​

Some Answered Questions, p. 243​

Hold on; you’re saying ‘attachment to the material world equals, ie., is the same as, sin’?

Yes, I believe that attachment to the 'things' of the material world is what leads to sin, physical pleasures but also other things.
Jesus taught us that we should be detached from our life in this world and to lay up our treasures in heaven, not on earth.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

But this (the Earth) is where God put Adam. (All humans, for that matter.) It was intended by God to be perfect, ie., sinless. Jehovah God gave A&E perfect conditions to live in, the Garden of Eden.
Nothing sinful about that. Psalm 115:16 says: “The heavens are the heavens of Jehovah; But the earth hath he given to the children of men.” It’s a beautiful home!

That God gave A&E perfect conditions to live in, the Garden of Eden, is not a Baha'i belief so I do not believe it.. As I said before I believe that this is allegorical, not literal truth.

This earth is not our permanent home. It is only a small part of our life, and very transitory.

Now if you mean improper attachment to certain desires, the Bible agrees: 1 John 2:15-17

Yes, I mean that but I also mean attachment, period (see verses above).

Agreed.

Basically you’re speaking about Free Will (which is the ability for intelligent creatures to make good or bad choices).

The endowment (built-in ability) of free will, shows that Jehovah loves His intelligent creation: part of life’s enjoyment for each sentient individual, is our ability to be individuals, different from others.

I agree with all of that

Do you know that’s the same with spirit creatures? They have their own personalities, and some have made bad choices. Fostered improper desires. — John 8:44… “did not stand fast in the truth” ie., left the truth.

I don't know what you mean by 'spirit creatures' or how John 8:44 refers to those.

Since you said, “Everyone living in this age is a descendant of Adam since they can trace their ancestry back to Adam”, I don’t see why not.

The Bible writer Matthew quoted Jesus as saying at Matthew 19:4-6, regarding the institution of marriage: “ “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” ”
He was speaking about A&E, whom Jehovah created & brought together in the first marriage.
(To reason on: if these events didn’t happen, how would it have any bearing on real people? But we find marriage in every ancient culture on Earth! And modern…. It’s too bad that many people are currently moving away from that commitment. It’s hurting society.

I very much believe in the institution of marriage and in the sanctity of marriage so we are on the same page with that!
I also believe that the movement away from the commitment of marriage is hurting society. If I did not mention this before, Baha'i law stipulates that sex of only allowed in a marriage between a man and a woman. Obviously, we get a lot of flak because we believe that, but it doesn't bother me at all. This is such an important law, beneficial for not only individuals but for society.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, Baha'is do not believe in original sin. Yes, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha said that prophets existed before Adam, which means that humans also existed before Adam, since the Prophets come for the benefit of humans.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.​

​

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”​

​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173​

Romans 5
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. I believe that Romans 5:23 is referring to spiritual death, not physical death.

That verse means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is close to God.
That soul will be spiritually dead.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes.
That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not continued life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223​

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their body dies. A soul cannot die since it immortal. Only physical things die since they are mortal. The souls of people who are distant from God will not have eternal life, so they will not gain the rewards of the spiritual world. Although their soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they will be “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God. This separation from God can be equated with hell, which is s state of the soul, not a geographical location.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”​

Some Answered Questions, p. 243​

Yes, I believe that attachment to the 'things' of the material world is what leads to sin, physical pleasures but also other things.
Jesus taught us that we should be detached from our life in this world and to lay up our treasures in heaven, not on earth.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

That God gave A&E perfect conditions to live in, the Garden of Eden, is not a Baha'i belief so I do not believe it.. As I said before I believe that this is allegorical, not literal truth.

This earth is not our permanent home. It is only a small part of our life, and very transitory.

Yes, I mean that but I also mean attachment, period (see verses above).

I agree with all of that

I don't know what you mean by 'spirit creatures' or how John 8:44 refers to those.

I very much believe in the institution of marriage and in the sanctity of marriage so we are on the same page with that!
I also believe that the movement away from the commitment of marriage is hurting society. If I did not mention this before, Baha'i law stipulates that sex of only allowed in a marriage between a man and a woman. Obviously, we get a lot of flak because we believe that, but it doesn't bother me at all. This is such an important law, beneficial for not only individuals but for society.

Informative.

 

[Trailblazer]

…why doesn’t he just say “Heaven” is the “Concourse on High”?

That is a very good question. The reason He did not say that is because 'everyone' who goes to Heaven is not in the Concourse on High, which is also referred to as the Supreme Concourse. In my understanding only the Prophets and God's favored angels exist at that high level which could be called 'the highest Heaven.' Other souls exist in Heaven, but at various levels below that level.

We who are still on Earth are promised assistance from the Supreme Concourse:

"Know thou of a certainty that thy Lord will come to thine aid with a company of the Concourse on high and hosts of the Bahá Kingdom. By the righteousness of God! Whoso openeth his lips in this Day and maketh mention of the name of his Lord, the hosts of Divine inspiration shall descend upon him from the heaven of My name, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. On him shall also descend the Concourse on high, each bearing aloft a chalice of pure light. Thus hath it been foreordained in the realm of God’s Revelation, by the behest of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful."​

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280​

​

"By the life of God! the angels of heaven magnify thee, the Supreme Concourse praise thee, the party of the Kingdom of El-ABHA announce to thee the glad tidings and the hosts of the unseen assist thee and render thee victorious through the banners of Bahá."​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 239​

​

"An individual must center his whole heart and mind on service to the Cause, in accordance with the high standards set by Bahá’u’lláh. When this is done, the Hosts of the Supreme Concourse will come to the assistance of the individual, and every difficulty and trial will gradually be overcome."​

Shoghi Effendi, Living the Life, p. 20​

I don’t see where it calls the “Concourse on high” the same as “Heaven.”

As I just said above, the 'Concourse on high' is the highest Heaven. All true believers go to Heaven but they reside on different levels in heaven.
Bahaullah wrote that Baha'is will all go to Heaven but they will reside be on various levels (what He called grades and stations) in Heaven:

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, p. 170​

Where is Adam mentioned? I don’t see it here. Must be another verse?

The best book to read about Baha'i beliefs regarding Adam is Some Answered Question.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

And the phrase, “inscrutable to all but God”, implies that it’s not understandable to people reading it.
Isn’t that the problem you have with the Bible?

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

(when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn) means is when Baha'u'llah died physically and ascended to the spiritual realm of existence (the Concourse on high in Heaven)...
(and the ocean of My utterance is stilled) means He was no longer revealing Scriptures on Earth.

(In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God,"
I think this means that there was a wisdom when Baha'u'llah was present on Earth, but there is another wisdom now that He is absent, but this wisdom is impossible for us to to understand, as only God knows.

Who are “Our favored angels”?

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

Our favored angels refers to God's and the Prophet's favored angels. I don't know who they are, but the following passage describes what they are like.

“And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 79-80​

And who is meant by “My”, “We”, and “Our”? Do these pronouns, mean the Prophets? The singular one, “My”, is supposed to be who, then?

Look forward to your explanations.

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

My refers to Baha'u'llah.
We refers to all the Prophets who reside in the Concourse on high (the realm of glory).
Our realm of glory refers to the Prophets' realm of glory (where they reside).
Our favored angels refers to the angels who are favored by the Prophets.

(I don’t mean to put you on the spot. Feel free to ask me about my beliefs, I enjoy explaining them.)
If you prefer to talk privately in a Conversation, I’d be glad to.

I do not mind explaining them here, as time permits. Feel free to tell me about your beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

But then, that’s not what the verse says, is it?
It does not say, “The living know that their bodies will die”; it says, “The living know that they will die.”
It’s in perfect harmony with Genesis 3:19, where Jehovah tells Adam, “You will return to the ground…. For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die

That's true. “The living know that they will die” but they refers to their bodies.

Really, if humans who’ve died are indeed living another realm, why did Jesus promise a future resurrection? What’s the purpose? It wouldn’t be needed.

Jesus never promised any future resurrection of dead bodies from their graves. The resurrection He promised was a spiritual resurrection.

Almost every religion has some sort of immediate afterlife teaching.
To me, it just shows the extent of the ‘deception’ warned about in Revelation 12:9. Along with many other concepts in this world.

In my opinion, the deception is what Christianity teaches about bodies rising from their graves and 'living again.' That is clearly not what the Bible teaches, so it is a 'grave' misunderstanding of the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is spiritual death, and that was to be destroyed when Christ returns.
Physical death will never be destroyed because God created the human body to be mortal, not immortal.

1 Corinthians 15 says that there are two different kinds of bodies:

--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies, which are different.

Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever is referring to Heaven, which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

In my opinion, the deception is what Christianity teaches about bodies rising from their graves and 'living again.' That is clearly not what the Bible teaches, so it is a 'grave' misunderstanding of the Bible.

I have had a lifetime of personal encounters with earthbound human spirits and have had direct contact with these spirits for the past sixteen years, so I believe that what the Bible teaches about the afterlife is very inaccurate and misleading. A lifetime of personal experiences as a medium, combined with years of experience as an experienced paranormal investigator, has clearly taught me that I shouldn't believe what the Bible teaches about the afterlife.

 

[nPeace]

Only mediums have psychic abilities. I don't know why.

Use logic.

I know you said some.
@Sgt. Pepper told me not to give information to mediums if they ask for it.
No, I am not suspicious of the medium I plan to use since he was recommended by anther medium I have known for over 20 years.

My mistake. Sorry.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”'

Who wrote this? Abbas (whom you call Abdul Baha), Shoghi or someone from your House of Justice? This clearly shows that it was not from Bahaollah. He would have elaborated the matter himself. Bahais Library publications camouflage this.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is a very good question. The reason He did not say that is because 'everyone' who goes to Heaven is not in the Concourse on High, which is also referred to as the Supreme Concourse. In my understanding only the Prophets and God's favored angels exist at that high level which could be called 'the highest Heaven.' Other souls exist in Heaven, but at various levels below that level.

We who are still on Earth are promised assistance from the Supreme Concourse:

"Know thou of a certainty that thy Lord will come to thine aid with a company of the Concourse on high and hosts of the Bahá Kingdom. By the righteousness of God! Whoso openeth his lips in this Day and maketh mention of the name of his Lord, the hosts of Divine inspiration shall descend upon him from the heaven of My name, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. On him shall also descend the Concourse on high, each bearing aloft a chalice of pure light. Thus hath it been foreordained in the realm of God’s Revelation, by the behest of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful."​

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280​

​

"By the life of God! the angels of heaven magnify thee, the Supreme Concourse praise thee, the party of the Kingdom of El-ABHA announce to thee the glad tidings and the hosts of the unseen assist thee and render thee victorious through the banners of Bahá."​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 239​

​

"An individual must center his whole heart and mind on service to the Cause, in accordance with the high standards set by Bahá’u’lláh. When this is done, the Hosts of the Supreme Concourse will come to the assistance of the individual, and every difficulty and trial will gradually be overcome."​

Shoghi Effendi, Living the Life, p. 20​

As I just said above, the 'Concourse on high' is the highest Heaven. All true believers go to Heaven but they reside on different levels in heaven.
Bahaullah wrote that Baha'is will all go to Heaven but they will reside be on various levels (what He called grades and stations) in Heaven:

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, p. 170​

The best book to read about Baha'i beliefs regarding Adam is Some Answered Question.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

(when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn) means is when Baha'u'llah died physically and ascended to the spiritual realm of existence (the Concourse on high in Heaven)...
(and the ocean of My utterance is stilled) means He was no longer revealing Scriptures on Earth.

(In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God,"
I think this means that there was a wisdom when Baha'u'llah was present on Earth, but there is another wisdom now that He is absent, but this wisdom is impossible for us to to understand, as only God knows.

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

Our favored angels refers to God's and the Prophet's favored angels. I don't know who they are, but the following passage describes what they are like.

“And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 79-80​

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

My refers to Baha'u'llah.
We refers to all the Prophets who reside in the Concourse on high (the realm of glory).
Our realm of glory refers to the Prophets' realm of glory (where they reside).
Our favored angels refers to the angels who are favored by the Prophets.

I do not mind explaining them here, as time permits. Feel free to tell me about your beliefs.

Thank you for those explanations. I really like that you back up what you believe.
I’ve also appreciated that you usually post the Scriptures from the Bible whenever they are mentioned! Most don’t put that much effort in, especially when it’s a Scripture that is used by the person you’re debating, which seems to support their side! But you post it!
I have a lot of respect for that! I’ll start doing the same with you, for further clarity.

(By the way, I prefer using the NWT [New World Translation] since it has restored the Divine Name [Yahweh, which is Jehovah in English] to its rightful places, and for its easy-to-understand translation. But I’m willing to use any, to compare and aid discernment.)

One thing you’ll find with me, is that I like to reason on Scriptures, and try tying them in with facts & other verses. That’s what the Apostle Paul did; at Acts 17:2,3 we are told it was his “custom” to “reason” from the Bible….

“2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them (Jews), and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to YOU.””
(In the NWT, the use of the all-capital “YOU” simply indicates a plural you, ie., a group; nothing more.)


Sometimes he was effective, but many times was not, as Acts 17:4,5 reveal….

“4 As a result some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and a great multitude of the Greeks who worshiped [God] and not a few of the principal women did so. 5 But the Jews, getting jealous, took into their company certain wicked men of the marketplace idlers and formed a mob and proceeded to throw the city into an uproar. And they assaulted the house of Jaʹson and went seeking to have them brought forth to the rabble.”

The point is, in order to reason on Scriptures, he had to believe it presented a certain viewpoint and did not contradict itself.
You do accept Paul as a literal person and not allegorical, right? Because if not, that would be a problem.

It’s getting late & I have some responsibilities tomorrow, so I’ll quote you here:
“Feel free to tell me about your beliefs.”

Thank you, I’ll be glad to.
And feel free to question me.
Give me until after the weekend, ok? I’ll reply to your other responses, too.

Have a great weekend, my cousin!

 

[Trailblazer]

Use logic.

What would I know if I used logic?

 

[Trailblazer]

Who wrote this? Abbas (whom you call Abdul Baha), Shoghi or someone from your House of Justice? This clearly shows that it was not from Bahaollah. He would have elaborated the matter himself. Bahais Library publications camouflage this.

And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173

Baha'u'llah wrote that.

If you click on the link above you can read the elaboration on pages 173-174.

Consider the differences that have arisen since the days of Adam. The divers and widely-known languages now spoken by the peoples of the earth were originally unknown, as were the varied rules and customs now prevailing amongst them. The people of those times spoke a language different from those now known. Diversities of language arose in a later age, in a land known as Babel. It was given the name Babel, because the term signifieth “the place where the confusion of tongues arose.”

Subsequently Syriac became prominent among the existing languages. The Sacred Scriptures of former times were revealed in that tongue. Later, Abraham, the Friend of God, appeared and shed upon the world the light of Divine Revelation. The language He spoke while He crossed the Jordan became known as Hebrew (Ibrání), which meaneth “the language of the crossing.” The Books of God and the Sacred Scriptures were then revealed in that tongue, and not until after a considerable lapse of time did Arabic become the language of Revelation….

Witness, therefore, how numerous and far-reaching have been the changes in language, speech, and writing since the days of Adam. How much greater must have been the changes before Him!

Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Trailblazer quoted:
"Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time."

Whatever, a claim but still no proof, no evidence.
Of course, I neither believe in existence of God nor on any God sending prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis, since there is no evidence..

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What would I know if I used logic?

In my opinion, using logic regarding psychic mediums means carefully considering everything that I've shared with you and on this forum, as well as the experiences of the medium that you intend to use to help you communicate with your late husband and the medium you've known for over 20 years. I think that your analysis should also include your personal experiences that you deem paranormal since you recognize there is no natural explanation for them. You are well-informed enough, in my opinion, to understand that there are supernatural phenomena in our world that defy scientific and religious explanation. I think that it is important to remember that another person's skepticism and opposition don't invalidate our personal experiences with the paranormal. I also don't believe that we can honestly dismiss our experiences or the experiences of those we know out of hand. To thine own self be true.

 

[Eli G]

A major feature of spiritism is claimed communication with the dead. Since the dead “are conscious of nothing at all,” communication with such dead persons is actually impossible. (Ec 9:5) God’s law to Israel forbade anyone’s inquiring of the dead and made the practice of spiritism a capital offense. (Le 19:31; 20:6, 27; De 18:9-12; compare Isa 8:19.) And in the Christian Greek Scriptures the statement is made that those who practice spiritism “will not inherit God’s kingdom.” (Ga 5:20, 21; Re 21:8) It, therefore, logically follows that any claimed communication with dead persons, if not a deliberate lie on the part of the claimant, must be from an evil source, a source that stands in opposition to Jehovah God.


The Bible clearly indicates that wicked spirits, demons, are this evil source. (See DEMON; DEMON POSSESSION.) A case in point is “a certain servant girl” in the city of Philippi. She used to furnish her masters with much gain by practicing “the art of prediction,” one of the things related to spiritism. (De 18:11) The account plainly says that the source of her predictions was, not God, but “a demon of divination,” a wicked spirit. Hence, when the apostle Paul expelled the wicked spirit, this girl lost her powers of prediction. (Ac 16:16-19) Regarding the Greek expression pyʹtho·na, here rendered “a demon of divination,” Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vol. 1, p. 328) says: “Python, in Greek mythology was the name of the Pythian serpent or dragon, dwelling in Pytho, at the foot of mount Parnassus, guarding the oracle of Delphi, and slain by Apollo. Thence the name was transferred to Apollo himself. Later the word was applied to diviners or soothsayers, regarded as inspired by Apollo. Since demons are the agents inspiring idolatry, I Cor. 10:20, the young woman in Acts 16:16 was possessed by a demon instigating the cult of Apollo, and thus had ‘a spirit of divination.’”

Insight/Spiritism .... https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004212

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die

That's true. “The living know that they will die” but they refers to their bodies.

Jesus never promised any future resurrection of dead bodies from their graves. The resurrection He promised was a spiritual resurrection.

In my opinion, the deception is what Christianity teaches about bodies rising from their graves and 'living again.' That is clearly not what the Bible teaches, so it is a 'grave' misunderstanding of the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is spiritual death, and that was to be destroyed when Christ returns.
Physical death will never be destroyed because God created the human body to be mortal, not immortal.

1 Corinthians 15 says that there are two different kinds of bodies:

--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies, which are different.

Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever is referring to Heaven, which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

After reading your posts, it seems to me that Baha'is understand the biblical God and the Bible far better than Christians. I'd like you to know that I respect you for your continued efforts to better understand the afterlife. One reason I chose to practice Wicca was because of its openness toward death and the afterlife. Wicca also appeals to me because it does not arrogantly claim to be the only religion with correct answers about the afterlife. I appreciate the fact that there are no scriptures, widely accepted revelations, or official theological beliefs that specify what happens to people after death and in the afterlife. As a Wiccan, I am free to form my own opinions regarding death, the afterlife, and spirits. I can also practice spiritualism without other Wiccans breathing down my neck and falsely accusing me of communicating with demons. I understand that Wiccans have different viewpoints on life after death, but there is no central authority within Wicca that mandates that we adhere to a particular interpretation of life after death. We do share common beliefs, such as reincarnation, but no official positions on the afterlife are taught or enforced. Wicca is, in my view, a very inclusive religion, and I can honestly say that my experience as a Wiccan has been positive. As far as I'm concerned, other people can practice any religion they want. I don't care unless someone tries to force their religion down my throat and falsely accuses me (such as by conversing with demons) because what I believe contradicts their beliefs or they use their religious beliefs to justify being abusive toward others. That is what I experienced growing up in a Christian home, and I won't tolerate it.