Where are the Dead?

[Trailblazer]

Of course you do. It's what you want, yes?

It has nothing to do with what I want, it has to do with what is true. I thought we already covered this on another thread.

Because there is no basis in fact that it's true, and the only reason anyone hears about this idea is ancient religious lore.

Of course there is no basis in fact, since facts can be proven, and religious beliefs can never be proven. However, that does not mean they are not true.

For any modern person to want to believe this idea is true is a sort of self-service, a sort of immortality, which I guess offsets the fear of death. That is a lot of mind drama.

I have more fear of death because I believe in an afterlife than if I didn't. There is nothing to fear if we just die and are dead.

 

[F1fan]

It has nothing to do with what I want, it has to do with what is true. I thought we already covered this on another thread.

Yet there ARE no facts, so no one can claim it's true. It is irrelevant to claim as a basis. That leaves it as something you want to be true.

Of course there is no basis in fact,

See, even you know this, it has nothing to do with it being true.

since facts can be proven, and religious beliefs can never be proven. However, that does not mean they are not true.

We don't know it's true, so irrelevant. If you assume it is true then you are back to wanting it to be true.

I have more fear of death because I believe in an afterlife than if I didn't. There is nothing to fear if we just die and are dead.

I'm not sure how you think this makes sense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yep, dead people are definitely dead. FWIW, I think you gave some sage advice about taking the time we have and making it well spent.

I see. So you answer to the OP's question about "Where are dead people" is "Cleveland".

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet there ARE no facts, so no one can claim it's true. It is irrelevant to claim as a basis.

Who is claiming it is true? Believing is not claiming. I cannot claim what I cannot prove.

That leaves it as something you want to be true.

No, it does not leave it at that because I don't believe it because I want it to be true. That is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.
I believe it because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about the journey of the soul, but also because there is other non-religions evidence.

See, even you know this, it has nothing to do with it being true.

Something can be true in reality even though it can never be proven as a fact.

We don't know it's true, so irrelevant. If you assume it is true then you are back to wanting it to be true.

I do not assume it's true, I believe it's true. A belief is not an assumption.
That is completely illogical. There is no logical connection between my believing it is true and my wanting it to be true.
For example, let's say I believe that there is going to be a big earthquake. Does that mean I want a big earthquake to occur?

I'm not sure how you think this makes sense.

It makes perfect sense.
There is nothing to fear if we die and are dead.
There is something to fear if we die and continue to exist in the spiritual world since the spiritual world is a complete unknown.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Hebrew word here is ruach - (רוּחַ) which is breath, wind, spirit.
The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh - (נֶפֶשׁ) a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Can you explain why you inserted soul in the text? Is it based on what you believe?

I did not insert anything into the text. I only said that within the context of this verse the spirit is the soul.
What do you think he spirit is if not the soul? If the spirit returns to God what do you think that means?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

"Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Ecclesiastes 12:7 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

Surely the belief of a person does not change what is actually written. I think you know that.
You don't believe in changing the scriptures to what we believe, do you?

What is actually written can be interpreted in various ways.
I am not changing the scriptures, I just interpret them to mean something different than you interpret them to mean.

You speak of the soul as though it is something that exists on its own.

In this physical world, the soul associates itself with a physical body since that is what we have in this physical world.
In the spiritual world, the soul associates itself with a spiritual body since that is what we have in the spiritual world.

Do you know you cannot exist without a body, whether that body be flesh, or spirit.
You are the person. Are you not?

The person is the soul, not the body. You cannot exist without a soul in this life or in the afterlife.
It is the soul that animates the physical body and gives it life. Adam became a living soul when God created him so he became a person.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You cannot exist without a physical body in this world, but you don't need a physical body in the spiritual world (heaven) since you will have a spiritual body.

Did you put that correctly, or should it be the other way around?

How about this. The spirit is the CPU that allows the computer - the body, - to work. The software, is the soul.
You can destroy the computer, but the software can be retrieved, and put in another computer.
However, the software is useless without the computer.

No, I put it correctly.....

The physical body can be likened to a software program that allows a computer (soul) to function.
The computer (soul) does not die after the software program (physical body) dies (when it is uninstalled).
After the physical body dies the soul continues to exist in a spiritual body and goes to heaven where it continues to live forever.

In the same way, the body without spirit is dead (James 2:26) , the soul is also inactive. It's dead, until it is retrieved from death, and given a brand new computer... I mean, body.

In the context of James 2:26 the word spirit does not mean the same thing as soul. The soul is still active even when the person is spiritually dead because if the soul was not active the person would die physically.

James 2:26 means that the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. The Baha'i Writings say the same thing. The human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities, so it is spiritually dead:

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing.…​

​

But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209​

Where can I find that in the Bible?
I'm willing to look at any scriptures you can provide, which says that.

After the physical body dies the soul (which is the person) will be is raised as a spiritual body and go to heaven where it continues to live forever.
It is in these verses:

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation​

​

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.​

​

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.​

The physical body which dies cannot exist in the Kingdom of God which is in heaven, which will last forever, because heaven is a spiritual world. That is why the physical body needs to be transformed into a spiritual body, in order to exist in heaven. The soul leaves the physical body at the moment of death and it is associated with a spiritual body (which is referred to in verse 44 as being raised).

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.​

​

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!​

True, Paul said, "I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50)
Transformed? Do you mean the physical body will change into a spirit body... No death?

Yes, that is what I mean, as I just explained above. There is no death, only a transformation into a different form.
We are transformed from a physical form into a spiritual form but we are the same person (soul).

You quoted it. Did you see it?
They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies

That is correct, as I said above.

I can live with the one or two that used their own view, but I like how the Amplified, put it.
Amplified Bible
Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],

Yes, they don't sleep in death, but that's not to say they don't die.
That's to say, an instant death and instant resurrection, in a spirit body, does not allow for sleep in death.

That's true. An instant death and instant resurrection in a spirit body, does not allow for sleep in death.
At the moment of death we will all be transformed from a (corruptible) physical body into an (incorruptible) spiritual body.

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Verse 50 makes that clear, even in the paraphrased translations.

• nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable
• nor does decay inherit immortality
• neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
• what decays cannot inherit what does not decay

That means the physical body (which is perishable) is mortal so it perishes (decays) when we die.
The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in heaven, which is imperishable (does not decay).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Thanks for that. Yes, you are a person, and a life, or have life.


The Hebrew word here is ruach - (רוּחַ) which is breath, wind, spirit.
The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh - (נֶפֶשׁ) a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

Can you explain why you inserted soul in the text? Is it based on what you believe?
Surely the belief of a person does not change what is actually written. I think you know that.
You don't believe in changing the scriptures to what we believe, do you?


You speak of the soul as though it is something that exists on its own.
Do you know you cannot exist without a body, whether that body be flesh, or spirit.
You are the person. Are you not?


Did you put that correctly, or should it be the other way around?


How about this. The spirit is the CPU that allows the computer - the body, - to work. The software, is the soul.
You can destroy the computer, but the software can be retrieved, and put in another computer.
However, the software is useless without the computer.

In the same way, the body without spirit is dead (James 2:26) , the soull is also inactive. It's dead, until it is retrieved from death, and given a brand new computer... I mean, body.

That certainly is keeping in sync with Ezekiel 18:4.

Ezekiel 18:4 Interlinear: Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son -- they are Mine, The soul that is sinning -- it doth die.

Joshua 2:14

Joshua 2:14 Interlinear: And the men say to her, 'Our soul for yours -- to die; if ye declare not this our matter, then it hath been, in Jehovah's giving to us this land, that we have done with thee kindness and truth.'

...and others.


Where can I find that in the Bible?
I'm willing to look at any scriptures you can provide, which says that.


True, Paul said, "I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50)
Transformed? Do you mean the physical body will change into a spirit body... No death?


You quoted it. Did you see it?
They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies
The New Living Transaction paraphrases texts though, so let's try these.
Unfortunately, I can't quote every one, but you can check them yourself.

Spoiler: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body

New International Version
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

English Standard Version
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Berean Standard Bible
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Berean Literal Bible
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual.

King James Bible
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

New King James Version
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

New American Standard Bible
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

NASB 1995
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

NASB 1977
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Legacy Standard Bible
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Amplified Bible
it is sown a natural body [mortal, suited to earth], it is raised a spiritual body [immortal, suited to heaven]. As surely as there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

Christian Standard Bible
sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
;

I excluded the paraphrased.
This verse is similar to 1 Peter 3:18 . . .He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

Yes, there are two kinds of bodies. The one we know well - flesh, or physical... then there is the spirit body - the heavenly body.
However, you notice the fleshly one dies before being given a spirit body. What is more, after being raised up. Raised up from where? The grave.

Verse 51. Again, let's exclude the paraphrased translations.

Spoiler: We will not all fall asleep

New International Version
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

English Standard Version
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Berean Standard Bible
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

Berean Literal Bible
Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

King James Bible
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

New King James Version
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

New American Standard Bible
Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

NASB 1995
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

NASB 1977
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Legacy Standard Bible
Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Amplified Bible
Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],

Christian Standard Bible
Listen, I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

I can live with the one or two that used their own view, but I like how the Amplified, put it.
Amplified Bible
Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],

Yes, they don't sleep in death, but that's not to say they don't die.
That's to say, an instant death and instant resurrection, in a spirit body, does not allow for sleep in death.
That too, is keeping in sync with the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 15:36 - The Resurrection Body

You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

biblehub.com

Paul certainly was not contradicting himself. He made clear, they had to die, before being raised to incorruption.
We see that from verses 37, and 38 as well.

1 Corinthians 15:37 - The Resurrection Body

And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else.

biblehub.com

1 Corinthians 15:38 - The Resurrection Body

But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

biblehub.com

Verse 50 makes that clear, even in the paraphrased translations.

• nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable
• nor does decay inherit immortality
• neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
• what decays cannot inherit what does not decay

Pretty good.
However, I would liken our spirit, not so much to the software of the computer, but more like the power source that keeps it running.

Take care, brother.

 

[nPeace]

That is cherry picking of a sort, picking the translation that reflects your worldview. We should impartially look at the translations. We should also not pick those that do the interpretation as it translates.

I posted numerous translations that say the same thing, so how is it cherry picking to highlight one that simplifies all of them?
It's no different to a person talking to another, and giving a simple explanation.

However, if you don't like that, that's okay. I won't pick one to explain.
All say the same thing. They will not sleep.

We should not pick those that use the word out of context, but those that use the word in context.
Do you agree, or disagree with that?

 

[nPeace]

I did not insert anything into the text. I only said that within the context of this verse the spirit is the soul.

Then you inserted your belief in the text, because the writer used the word for spirit, not soul.
Because you believe the spirit is the soul, that does not make it true, and does not give you the liberty, to decide that the writer used spirit, but meant soul.
The soul is not the spirit, in any text in the Bible.

What do you think he spirit is if not the soul? If the spirit returns to God what do you think that means?

Read Psalms 104:29, 30, and hopefully you get the answer.
If that's not enough, you can try Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:24, 25

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

"Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

What does Ecclesiastes 12:7 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

The soul is not the spirit.
The Bible writers used two different words to represent each.

What is actually written can be interpreted in various ways.

So you say. Peter said, "some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction".
So, yes, what is written can be twisted in various ways, but easily spotted for what they are.

I am not changing the scriptures, I just interpret them to mean something different than you interpret them to mean.

Inserting a different word in order to change the text to mean what we want it to say, is far from interpreting.
For example, if a person reads in the Bible Ἐδάκρυσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς - Jesus wept, and they decided no, Jesus did not weep, and said, they interpreted dakruó (weep) to mean gelaó (laugh), that person is lying.
They haven't interpreted anything. They changed the text to fit what they believe.

Not only that, but worst, they seek to discredit the Bible, by claiming, it has no structure for truth.

In this physical world, the soul associates itself with a physical body since that is what we have in this physical world.
In the spiritual world, the soul associates itself with a spiritual body since that is what we have in the spiritual world.

The person is the soul, not the body. You cannot exist without a soul in this life or in the afterlife.

Sounds like a quote from Bahaullah.

It is the soul that animates the physical body and gives it life. Adam became a living soul when God created him so he became a person.

Not according to the text, no. Infact, I see you quoted Genesis 2:7, which says Adam became a living sould, after God breathed the breath of life (spirit) in him.
So it is the spirit that animates the body. It is the spirit that makes alive... that made Adam a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You cannot exist without a physical body in this world, but you don't need a physical body in the spiritual world (heaven) since you will have a spiritual body.

That's true.

No, I put it correctly.....

The physical body can be likened to a software program that allows a computer (soul) to function.
The computer (soul) does not die after the software program (physical body) dies (when it is uninstalled).
After the physical body dies the soul continues to exist in a spiritual body and goes to heaven where it continues to live forever.

If you like.

In the context of James 2:26 the word spirit does not mean the same thing as soul.

Ha. It never did Trailblazer.

The soul is still active even when the person is spiritually dead because if the soul was not active the person would die physically.

The person is the soul.
נֶפֶשׁ - nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
I thought you agreed to that. The physical body will return to dust, but YOU are not your body. You are a soul. That's what you said. You even put the emphasis on YOU.
You aren't confused, are you?

James 2:26 means that the body without the spirit is spiritually dead. The Baha'i Writings say the same thing. The human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities, so it is spiritually dead:

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing.…​

​

But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209​

The Bahai writings twist the scripture to their own liking... and destruction, according to Peter.
The body without spirit is dead, means exactly what it says, the physical body without spirit is physically dead.
James would not use something that needs interpreting to explain something. He would have to use an explanation that everyone, including the youngest child with understanding, could relate to.
(James 2:26) . . .Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

After the physical body dies the soul (which is the person) will be is raised as a spiritual body and go to heaven where it continues to live forever.
It is in these verses:

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation​

​

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.​

​

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.​

So, you agree that God give the person a body?
God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him.

The physical body which dies cannot exist in the Kingdom of God which is in heaven, which will last forever, because heaven is a spiritual world. That is why the physical body needs to be transformed into a spiritual body, in order to exist in heaven. The soul leaves the physical body at the moment of death and it is associated with a spiritual body (which is referred to in verse 44 as being raised).

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.​

​

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!​

Yes, the soul, which is also the life of the person, will leave the body. It goes out.

Genesis 35:18 Interlinear: And it cometh to pass in the going out of her soul (for she died), that she calleth his name Ben-Oni; and his father called him Benjamin;

Yes, that is what I mean, as I just explained above. There is no death, only a transformation into a different form.
We are transformed from a physical form into a spiritual form but we are the same person (soul).

So, you are not in agreement with Paul?

1 Corinthians 15:36 - The Resurrection Body

You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

biblehub.com

That is correct, as I said above.

That's true. An instant death and instant resurrection in a spirit body, does not allow for sleep in death.
At the moment of death we will all be transformed from a (corruptible) physical body into an (incorruptible) spiritual body.

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That means the physical body (which is perishable) is mortal so it perishes (decays) when we die.
The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in heaven, which is imperishable (does not decay).

Oh. You do agree.

Question though. Can God sustain a mortal body, so that it lasts forever, and does not wear out?

 

[nPeace]

Pretty good.
However, I would liken our spirit, not so much to the software of the computer, but more like the power source that keeps it running.

Take care, brother.

I had to look back to make sure I hadn't written some foolishness?
I said exactly what you did Hockey.

The spirit is the CPU that allows the computer - the body, - to work. The software, is the soul.
You can destroy the computer, but the software can be retrieved, and put in another computer.
However, the software is useless without the computer.

Hope your eyes aren't failing you my brother.

 

[Truthseeker]

I posted numerous translations that say the same thing, so how is it cherry picking to highlight one that simplifies all of them?
It's no different to a person talking to another, and giving a simple explanation.

However, if you don't like that, that's okay. I won't pick one to explain.
All say the same thing. They will not sleep.

We should not pick those that use the word out of context, but those that use the word in context.
Do you agree, or disagree with that?

You think they say the last translation says the same thing, and that is your prerogative. We all have our interpretations. The last translation makes things too simple, because while they are translating, in a way they are telling what the interpretation is. I don't like translations like that. Some translations go further in that direction of interpreting what is actually meant. I especially don't like the Living Bible, it goes further in that direction:

51 But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!

It is good that you didn't pick that translation! I just think the translation you picked goes a bit in that direction, it is not egregious.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you inserted your belief in the text, because the writer used the word for spirit, not soul.
Because you believe the spirit is the soul, that does not make it true, and does not give you the liberty, to decide that the writer used spirit, but meant soul.
The soul is not the spirit, in any text in the Bible.

I don't care, because the soul is the human spirit in the Baha'i Writings, and those Writings supersede the Bible since they were revealed by a later Messenger of God. That is aside from the fact that nobody even knows who wrote the Bible, but we well know who wrote the Baha'i Writings.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.”​

Some Answered Questions, p. 208​

Read Psalms 104:29, 30, and hopefully you get the answer.
If that's not enough, you can try Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:24, 25

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I asked you "If the spirit returns to God what do you think that means? Those verses do not answer that question.
What is the spirit of man that returns to God?

30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

That verse is about God's spirit, not about the human spirit.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul, which is a human spirit.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God gave life and breath to man at the moment of conception, and then man became a living soul, which is a human spirit.

The soul is not the spirit.
The Bible writers used two different words to represent each.

Sometimes, in either the Bible or the Baha'i Writings, the words soul and spirit mean something different, but other times they mean the same thing. It all depends upon the context (the passage that we find the word in).

So you say. Peter said, "some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction".
So, yes, what is written can be twisted in various ways, but easily spotted for what they are.

Yes, the ignorant twist the meanings of the Scriptures since they do not understand what they mean, since the Book was sealed up until the time of the end, when Christ returned.

Daniel Chapter 12

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

And again in Isaiah....

Isaiah Chapter 29

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

That day is the coming of the Lord, the return of Christ, when the Book was unsealed so the true meaning could be understood.

Inserting a different word in order to change the text to mean what we want it to say, is far from interpreting.

I did not insert any words into the Bible or changed its meaning.

Sounds like a quote from Bahaullah.

No, it is something I wrote myself givden my understanding of the Baha'i Writings.

Not according to the text, no. Infact, I see you quoted Genesis 2:7, which says Adam became a living sould, after God breathed the breath of life (spirit) in him.
So it is the spirit that animates the body. It is the spirit that makes alive... that made Adam a living soul.

It is the soul (which is the spirit) that animates the physical body and gives it life. Adam became a living soul because the soul is the living person. You see, the word 'soul' can be used in different contexts, so the soul can mean the breath of life and also mean the living person.

The person is the soul.
נֶפֶשׁ - nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
I thought you agreed to that. The physical body will return to dust, but YOU are not your body. You are a soul. That's what you said. You even put the emphasis on YOU.
You aren't confused, are you?

I am not confused.
Yes, the person IS a soul, but a person also HAS a soul because the soul is what makes a person a person.

The soul of a person is still active even when the person is spiritually dead because if the soul was not active the person would not be a person anymore.

The Bahai writings twist the scripture to their own liking... and destruction, according to Peter.

Wrong. The Baha'i Writings unsealed the Book and made the scriptures understandable, since Baha'u'llah unlocked their meaning.

The body without spirit is dead, means exactly what it says, the physical body without spirit is physically dead.

That's true. That is what it means.

James would not use something that needs interpreting to explain something. He would have to use an explanation that everyone, including the youngest child with understanding, could relate to.
(James 2:26) . . .Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Everything in the Bible needs interpreting, as do all written texts. Words and sentences only sit on a page and mean nothing until a person interprets them.

So, you agree that God give the person a body?
God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him.

Not literally. The human body evolved over time. But since God is responsible for the process of evolution one could say that God gave the person a body.

Yes, the soul, which is also the life of the person, will leave the body. It goes out.

Genesis 35:18 Interlinear: And it cometh to pass in the going out of her soul (for she died), that she calleth his name Ben-Oni; and his father called him Benjamin;

I agree.

So, you are not in agreement with Paul?

1 Corinthians 15:36 - The Resurrection Body

You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

biblehub.com

Yes.

Oh. You do agree.

Question though. Can God sustain a mortal body, so that it lasts forever, and does not wear out?

I don't know 'what God can do.' Nobody knows that. All we know about God and what God does is in Scriptures.
NO Scriptures say that God sustains a mortal body so that it will last forever. What they say is this:

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Why would anyone want a physical body that lasts forever? They would have to be certifiably insane to want that, when they can have a spiritual body, a heavenly body made of heavenly elements that lasts forever and does not have any physical needs or diseases or pain.

I get it. Certain Christians want to live on earth forever in a physical body, but NO scriptures say that will ever be the case. All scriptures say you go to heaven after you die. You have to really twist the meaning of verses and add to their meaning in order to make them say what you want to believe in order to create such a fantasy afterlife!

The 'belief' that after we die we will be raised physically and we will 'return to Eden' and live like Adam and Eve lived thousands of years ago is not in any way supported by the Bible. It is a teaching of certain churches, namely the JW teaching, and it is false. Do you want to believe in reality or in a fantasy? Wouldn't you rather be prepared for what is going to happen to you after you die?

 

[Trailblazer]

You think they say the last translation says the same thing, and that is your prerogative. We all have our interpretations. The last translation makes things too simple, because while they are translating, in a way they are telling what the interpretation is. I don't like translations like that. Some translations go further in that direction of interpreting what is actually meant. I especially don't like the Living Bible, it goes further in that direction:

51 But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!

It is good that you didn't pick that translation! I just think the translation you picked goes a bit in that direction, it is not egregious.

AMP
Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
TLB
But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!

Why do you think the TLB is more egregious than the AMP? The 'sleep in death' should not even be in the verse since nobody sleeps in death.
AMP is also confusing because it makes it sound as if the physical body is going to be transformed into a spiritual body and that is not really what is going to happen. The physical body will die, not be transformed. Then we will get a spiritual body. How that will happen only God knows.

I like the TLB because it is simple and it actually says what will happen to us when we die. We will be given new bodies, since the form (body) we will have is given to us by God.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157​

​

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”​

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194​

 

[Truthseeker]

Why do you think the TLB is more egregious than the AMP? The 'sleep in death' should not even be in the verse since nobody sleeps in death.
AMP is also confusing because it makes it sound as if the physical body is going to be transformed into a spiritual body and that is not really what is going to happen. The physical body will die, not be transformed. Then we will get a spiritual body. How that will happen only God knows.

The original I think only meant "sleep" in translation. At least Amp included the sleep part, but TLB ignored the sleep part, and just said "die". Anybody who relies on that wouldn't know about the original word that is it usually translated to. It is misleading. At least the Amp acknowledged the word "sleep".

 

[Trailblazer]

The original I think only meant "sleep" in translation. At least Amp included the sleep part, but TLB ignored the sleep part, and just said "die". Anybody who relies on that wouldn't know about the original word that is it usually translated to. It is misleading. At least the Amp acknowledged the word "sleep".

Why do you think the sleep part should be included? Nobody sleeps in death. That is what is misleading.

I am so tired of talking about religion.
I am so looking forward to meeting the atheist man for a date! He won't have to worry about me talking about religion.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Why should the dead even care to interact with the living?

I believe that there are several reasons why the dead would want to interact with and communicate with the living. If you want to know what I think about this, please let me know, and I will tell you. For the record, there is a common and accepted belief among psychic mediums and paranormal investigators that spirits who have been around longer will assist newer spirits in interacting with the living. As a medium and paranormal investigator, I believe it too.

 

[Eli G]

Why do you think the sleep part should be included? Nobody sleeps in death. That is what is misleading.
...

John 11:11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died, 15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples: “Let us also go, so that we may die with him.”

Evidently, Jesus compared death to sleep. In other places in Scripture the same comparison is used (Acts 7:60).

1 Cor. 15:17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

The comparison was used even in Hebrew (1 Kings 1:21; 2:10; 11:21).

 

[nPeace]

You think they say the last translation says the same thing, and that is your prerogative. We all have our interpretations. The last translation makes things too simple, because while they are translating, in a way they are telling what the interpretation is. I don't like translations like that. Some translations go further in that direction of interpreting what is actually meant. I especially don't like the Living Bible, it goes further in that direction:

51 But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!

It is good that you didn't pick that translation! I just think the translation you picked goes a bit in that direction, it is not egregious.

Okay. I understand. I have no problem with that.
How do you choose you preferred translation(s)?

 

[nPeace]

I don't care, because the soul is the human spirit in the Baha'i Writings, and those Writings supersede the Bible since they were revealed by a later Messenger of God. That is aside from the fact that nobody even knows who wrote the Bible, but we well know who wrote the Baha'i Writings.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.”​

Some Answered Questions, p. 208​

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I asked you "If the spirit returns to God what do you think that means? Those verses do not answer that question.
What is the spirit of man that returns to God?

30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

That verse is about God's spirit, not about the human spirit.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul, which is a human spirit.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God gave life and breath to man at the moment of conception, and then man became a living soul, which is a human spirit.

Sometimes, in either the Bible or the Baha'i Writings, the words soul and spirit mean something different, but other times they mean the same thing. It all depends upon the context (the passage that we find the word in).

Yes, the ignorant twist the meanings of the Scriptures since they do not understand what they mean, since the Book was sealed up until the time of the end, when Christ returned.

Daniel Chapter 12

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

And again in Isaiah....

Isaiah Chapter 29

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

That day is the coming of the Lord, the return of Christ, when the Book was unsealed so the true meaning could be understood.

I did not insert any words into the Bible or changed its meaning.

No, it is something I wrote myself givden my understanding of the Baha'i Writings.

It is the soul (which is the spirit) that animates the physical body and gives it life. Adam became a living soul because the soul is the living person. You see, the word 'soul' can be used in different contexts, so the soul can mean the breath of life and also mean the living person.

I am not confused.
Yes, the person IS a soul, but a person also HAS a soul because the soul is what makes a person a person.

The soul of a person is still active even when the person is spiritually dead because if the soul was not active the person would not be a person anymore.

Wrong. The Baha'i Writings unsealed the Book and made the scriptures understandable, since Baha'u'llah unlocked their meaning.

That's true. That is what it means.

Everything in the Bible needs interpreting, as do all written texts. Words and sentences only sit on a page and mean nothing until a person interprets them.

Not literally. The human body evolved over time. But since God is responsible for the process of evolution one could say that God gave the person a body.

I agree.

Yes.

I don't know 'what God can do.' Nobody knows that. All we know about God and what God does is in Scriptures.
NO Scriptures say that God sustains a mortal body so that it will last forever. What they say is this:

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Why would anyone want a physical body that lasts forever? They would have to be certifiably insane to want that, when they can have a spiritual body, a heavenly body made of heavenly elements that lasts forever and does not have any physical needs or diseases or pain.

I get it. Certain Christians want to live on earth forever in a physical body, but NO scriptures say that will ever be the case. All scriptures say you go to heaven after you die. You have to really twist the meaning of verses and add to their meaning in order to make them say what you want to believe in order to create such a fantasy afterlife!

The 'belief' that after we die we will be raised physically and we will 'return to Eden' and live like Adam and Eve lived thousands of years ago is not in any way supported by the Bible. It is a teaching of certain churches, namely the JW teaching, and it is false. Do you want to believe in reality or in a fantasy? Wouldn't you rather be prepared for what is going to happen to you after you die?

I know you don't care.
You only care about Bahaullah's teaching.
So, I wonder why you quote the Bible at all... other than to try to discredit it... and Christians.

Why do you think the sleep part should be included? Nobody sleeps in death. That is what is misleading.

I am so tired of talking about religion.
I am so looking forward to meeting the atheist man for a date! He won't have to worry about me talking about religion.

Then don't talk about it. No one is forcing you, are they?
Like the rebellious Israelites said... "Go eat your manna. That contemptible bread. We want the fish and lentils we had in Egypt."

 

[Trailblazer]

Why should the dead even care to interact with the living? Aren't expectations of the dead wanting to come back to interact with the living kind of a vivocentric attitude?

The dead might want to interact with the living in order to tell the living something they neglected to tell them before they died, for closure, or they might want to convey to the living what it is like in the spiritual world.

When I'm dead, I hope to be finally done with the world of the living. As for whether the dead can interact with the dead... Only the dead know the answer to that question (and they're not telling).

I believe that for the most part the dead, meaning those souls who have died physically and entered the spiritual world, don't have much interest in the material world anymore, although I also believe that holy souls have a great effect on the material world.

I don't think that only the dead know if they can interact with the living. I think some living people also know, if they have been contacted by the dead (spirits who have crossed over). Normally any actual communication is facilitated by psychic mediums but the dead can also show signs to the living.

My late husband has made sure I know he is still alive in the spiritual world by causing paranormal things to happen in my house, although he should know that I already know that since we have the same religious beliefs. There is no normal explanation for these paranormal things that have happened. I am going to contact him using a psychic medium in due time. Meanwhile, I know he could pop back in at any time. I don't know how that works, how he can come from the spiritual world to the material world, and then go back to the spiritual world, but my friend @Sgt. Pepper is the expert on these psychic things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you don't care.
You only care about Bahaullah's teaching.
So, I wonder why you quote the Bible at all... other than to try to discredit it... and Christians.

As I said, I believe that the Baha'i Writings supersede the Bible since they were revealed by a later Messenger of God so that is why I refer to them

When posting to Christians I have to quote the Bible because that is the only scripture that Christians will discuss.
I am not trying to discredit the Bible or Christians.

Then don't talk about it. No one is forcing you, are they?
Like the rebellious Israelites said... "Go eat your manna. That contemptible bread. We want the fish and lentils we had in Egypt."

I usually try to avoid religious topics but sometimes I get sucked in.