Where are the Gold Plates?

[DeepShadow]

Most definitely frubal worthy no doubt.

Thanks a million for posting this. Is this your own research or can you link us up to the various studies done on this.

Both. I'll find more if I can online, but half of it is mine and the other half is from a hard-copy book on chiasmus.

Can you start another thread going into more detail on your research concerning this or link us to the studies done on this subject...

I'll see what I can do, but it's hardly off-topic here. The fact remains that these are the kinds of things that paleolinguists would look for in an authentic work, and we have them. So if we had the plates, we would only have scholars arguing about translation, whereas without them we can skip that and actually see for ourselves.

Fascinating...I love it...great evidence pointing to the fact that these are truly God inspired scriptures...

Thank you, FFH, and thanks for the frubals...but in my last paragraph I tried to spell out very clearly why this was nothing of the sort. It only makes the Book of Mormon a mystery, but people are entitled to solve that mystery as they see fit...or not.

 

[Mister Emu]

The chiasmus, and the complexity, is quite impressive but I just can't see how it requires supernatural explanation...

 

[DeepShadow]

The chiasmus, and the complexity, is quite impressive but I just can't see how it requires supernatural explanation...

Well, considering that megachiasm were unknown at the time of Joseph Smith, their inclusion in the Book of Mormon is somewhat startling. How would you explain it?

 

[Mister Emu]

Well, considering that megachiasmus were unknown at the time of Joseph Smith, their inclusion in the Book of Mormon is somewhat startling. How would you explain it?

I'm just a skeptic, for me to accept it as super natural in origin all natural explanations would have to be exhausted... which in this case they can't be.

 

[DeepShadow]

Makes sense. I've suggested lots of explanations for the chiasmus in the past, but I'm only trying to open the door for that side of the debate. Someone else will have to run with it.

All I want is for people to realize that the Book of Mormon is not an OBVIOUS fraud. It's possible that Joseph Smith was just the luckiest con man ever, to pull off the proper names, poetry, local customs etc. But that's not an obvious fraud.

The Book of Mormon is a mystery. People can solve that for themselves in many ways.

 

[DeepShadow]

For more on the subject, here's, an overview of proper names, from Hugh Nibley's Lehi in the Desert. Note that proper names and poetic forms are two of the four things that William Albright used to verify texts.

BM = Book of Mormon; OW = Old World

AHA (BM), son of Nephite commander
AHA (OW), a name of the first Pharoah; it means warrior and is a common word

AMINADAB (BM), Nephite missioanry
AMANATHABI (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. (This name is adapted for Caananite speech)

AMMON (BM), the most common name of the Book of Mormon
AMMON (OW), the most common name in the Egyptian Empire; the great universal God of the Empire.

AMMONI-HAH (BM), name of a country and city
AMMUNI-RA (OW), Prince of Beirut under Egyptian rule. The above might stand the same relationship to this name as:

CAMENI-HAH (BM), A Nephite general
KHAMUNI-RA (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra (Knudtzon, Amarna-Tafeln p. 1561)

GIDDONAH (BM), A high priest who judged Korihor
DJI-DO-NA (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon

GIDDIANHI (BM), Robber chief and general
DJHOTI-ANKHI (OW), Egyptian proper name

GIMGIM-NO (BM), a city of Gimgim
KENKEME (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.
Also compare to:
NO-AMON (OW), Literally "City of Amon,"

HEM (BM), Brother of the earlier Ammon
HEM (OW), Means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the common title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon"

HELAMAN (BM), great Nephite Prophet
HER-AMON (OW), "in the presence of Amon." Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, the Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.

HIMNI (BM), a son of King Mosiah
HMN (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god (vowels are implied in this name, you guess what they are)

KORIHOR (BM), political agitator
KHERIHOR (OW), great high priest of Ammon

MANTI (BM), a Nephite soldier, a land, a city and a hill
MANTI (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name (again, reformed Egyptian)

NEPHI (BM), founder of the Nephite nation
NEHI, NEHRI (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen
also compare:
NFY (OW), an Egyptian captain
NIHPI (OW),

PAANCHI (BM), son of Pahoran
PAANCHI (OW), son of Kherihor

PAHORAN (BM), a great chief judge
PAHERAN (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine

PACUMENI (BM), son of Pahoran.
PAKAMEN (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.

PACHUS (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.
PA-KS and PACH-QS (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."

SAM (BM), brother of Nephi.
SAM TAWI (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.

SEEZORAM and ZEEZROM (BM), a depraved judge, and a lawyer, resp., the latter also the name of a city.
ZOSER, ZESER, etc. (OW), Third Dynasty ruler, one of the greatest Pharaohs.

ZEMNA-RI-HAH (BM), robber chief.
ZMN-HA-RE (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order—a common Egyptian practice.

ZENIFF (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.
ZNB, SNB (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.

ZENOCH (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.
ZENEKH (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

The Egyptian names listed here come from four sources:
Herrmann Ranke, Die Aegyptischen Personennamen (Hamburg, 1934)
J. Lieblein, Dictionaire de Noms Hieroghyphiques (Chriatiania, 1871)
J. A. Knudtzon, Die El-Amarna-Tafeln (Leipzig: Hinrich, 1915; reprinted Aalen: Zeller, 1964) 2:1555-83
And finally, scattered throughout the JEA (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology)

 

[Mister Emu]

All I want is for people to realize that the Book of Mormon is not an OBVIOUS fraud

Fair enough, I just want to say I wasn't claiming that it was...

 

[KingM]

You might look at this article for an alternate view as to chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Melissa G]

For more on the subject, here's, an overview of proper names, from Hugh Nibley's Lehi in the Desert. Note that proper names and poetic forms are two of the four things that William Albright used to verify texts.

BM = Book of Mormon; OW = Old World

AHA (BM), son of Nephite commander
AHA (OW), a name of the first Pharoah; it means warrior and is a common word

AMINADAB (BM), Nephite missioanry
AMANATHABI (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. (This name is adapted for Caananite speech)

AMMON (BM), the most common name of the Book of Mormon
AMMON (OW), the most common name in the Egyptian Empire; the great universal God of the Empire.

AMMONI-HAH (BM), name of a country and city
AMMUNI-RA (OW), Prince of Beirut under Egyptian rule. The above might stand the same relationship to this name as:

CAMENI-HAH (BM), A Nephite general
KHAMUNI-RA (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra (Knudtzon, Amarna-Tafeln p. 1561)

GIDDONAH (BM), A high priest who judged Korihor
DJI-DO-NA (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon

GIDDIANHI (BM), Robber chief and general
DJHOTI-ANKHI (OW), Egyptian proper name

GIMGIM-NO (BM), a city of Gimgim
KENKEME (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.
Also compare to:
NO-AMON (OW), Literally "City of Amon,"

HEM (BM), Brother of the earlier Ammon
HEM (OW), Means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the common title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon"

HELAMAN (BM), great Nephite Prophet
HER-AMON (OW), "in the presence of Amon." Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, the Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.

HIMNI (BM), a son of King Mosiah
HMN (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god (vowels are implied in this name, you guess what they are)

KORIHOR (BM), political agitator
KHERIHOR (OW), great high priest of Ammon

MANTI (BM), a Nephite soldier, a land, a city and a hill
MANTI (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name (again, reformed Egyptian)

NEPHI (BM), founder of the Nephite nation
NEHI, NEHRI (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen
also compare:
NFY (OW), an Egyptian captain
NIHPI (OW),

PAANCHI (BM), son of Pahoran
PAANCHI (OW), son of Kherihor

PAHORAN (BM), a great chief judge
PAHERAN (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine

PACUMENI (BM), son of Pahoran.
PAKAMEN (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.

PACHUS (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.
PA-KS and PACH-QS (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."

SAM (BM), brother of Nephi.
SAM TAWI (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.

SEEZORAM and ZEEZROM (BM), a depraved judge, and a lawyer, resp., the latter also the name of a city.
ZOSER, ZESER, etc. (OW), Third Dynasty ruler, one of the greatest Pharaohs.

ZEMNA-RI-HAH (BM), robber chief.
ZMN-HA-RE (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order—a common Egyptian practice.

ZENIFF (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.
ZNB, SNB (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.

ZENOCH (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.
ZENEKH (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

The Egyptian names listed here come from four sources:
Herrmann Ranke, Die Aegyptischen Personennamen (Hamburg, 1934)
J. Lieblein, Dictionaire de Noms Hieroghyphiques (Chriatiania, 1871)
J. A. Knudtzon, Die El-Amarna-Tafeln (Leipzig: Hinrich, 1915; reprinted Aalen: Zeller, 1964) 2:1555-83
And finally, scattered throughout the JEA (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology)

Nibly is hardly a impartial source. I can't agree with the reading of many of these names at all. Lets take one as an example S3-T3wy, or your Sam Tawi, not even close. Egtyptian S3 means son, T3wy means land. Son of the Land is not an Eypgtian title. Normal royal titulary would include nb-nswt-t3wy, ie Lord of the Two Lands.

Unity of Egypt is usually expressed as Sm3-t3wy. Horus and Seth are depicted entwining the heraldic plants of upper and lower Egypt around the Sm3 heirogylph, which is depicted as windpipe and lungs.

KHAMUNI-RA (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra (Knudtzon, Amarna-Tafeln p. 1561)

This example is ridiculous, as the City of Akhetaten was only active during the reign of Akhenaten, the old Gods were proscribed, certainly you would not expect to find a name with Amun embedded in it. The Ra element is possible, as Ra was the Sun God, of which Aten was the visible disk.
melissa g

 

[DeepShadow]

Nibly is hardly a impartial source.

Agreed. I like him because he cites his sources, though.

I can't agree with the reading of many of these names at all. Lets take one as an example S3-T3wy, or your Sam Tawi, not even close.

Nibley cites H.E. Winlock's "The Eleventh Egyptian Dynasty" in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies II (p. 266) as saying that "Sam Tawi" (translated "Uniter in the Land") was the title taken by the successor to Nehri. They were part of a separate ruling family at Thebes under the patronage of Amon (ibid, p 256). You are welcome to track down those individuals and give an alternate translation, but please cite your sources.

Egtyptian S3 means son, T3wy means land. Son of the Land is not an Eypgtian title. Normal royal titulary would include nb-nswt-t3wy, ie Lord of the Two Lands.

Nibley's sources agree that this isn't "Son of the Land" but "uniter," which agrees with...

Unity of Egypt is usually expressed as Sm3-t3wy.

In that case, why are you saying this is S3 and not Sm3?

This example is ridiculous, as the City of Akhetaten was only active during the reign of Akhenaten, the old Gods were proscribed, certainly you would not expect to find a name with Amun embedded in it.

Were they proscribed in names as well as worship? Were the name police going to hunt you down and change your name?

Isn't it possible that this individual was born (and named) before the ascention of Akhenaten, and kept the name? It may seem silly, but Nibley cites a source that claims there was such a name. Do you have evidence that the source is mistaken, or that Nibley is misquoting it?

Even if we take these two names off, that still leaves a huge number of names. If you can show that Nibley was faking sources or otherwise fraudulent, I'll discard the list, but otherwise you'll need to wrangle with his sources or get some of your own.

For what it's worth, the great paleolinguist William Albright wasn't so quick to discard this list of names. He was impressed by the presence of Egyptian names such as Pahoran and Paanchi, apparently.

 

[Melissa G]

Well, Albright may off been, but I'm not. I'm prepared to invest some time in these names. Obvioulsy I can't give a detailed reply off the top of my head. I'm just a little concerned that this thread beginning to wander way off line.

Amun was the chief target of Akhenaten's hate. Certainly as far as I'm aware, you ould mention Amun's name. We know that Amun did not perish though, his victory was total once Akhenaten died. It's accepcted by scholars, that Akhenaten's state was moreorless a police state.

I'm, not saying S3, is Sm3. The two are very different. Usual title for a New Kingdom king, would always include S3 R', Son of the Sun.

The kings of the Eleventh Dynasy commenced work on Amun's great Temple, Ipet-Swt. As they came to power following the chaos and division and chaos of the second inermdiate period, thay naturally assumed the title. Uniting the Two lands. I fail to see what this has to do with Nephi.

melissa g

 

[madhatter85]

Back on topic.

It doesn't matter if you saw them or not. even if you held them in your hand you wouldn't accept them. It doesn't matter where they are. the fact is that the Book of Mormon exists, and it cannot be disproven by ignorant claims. nor can it be disproven by science. a "lack of evidence" is not the same as "evidence against." They don't convict criminals because of a "lack of evidence" because you can't prove anything with a "lack of evidence" .I think after 180 years they would have found something by now if it were indeed false. But it stands strong and sure in the face of attacks on every front.

The only way to know if the book is truely of God, is to ask God having faith that you will recieve an answer, whatever the answer may be. It is that simple. If you don't desire to know, you wont.

 

[Autodidact]

I agree.

It raises a question. Then when the purported language that he's translating from turns out not to exist, it starts looking awfully fishy.