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Where are the Gold Plates?

KingM

Member
The plates were sacred and were never meant to become a museum article. Further, people were willing to kill Joseph to obtain the plates, so returning them to Moroni was in part likely done both to protect them and Joseph's life. As much as we'd all love to be able to see the plates for ourselves, that has never been the way that God has confirmed religious truths to mankind.

The thing I like about the Book of Mormon story is the human element to it. Ancient writers, a compiler 1500 years ago who hid the plate from enemies, a young man with a miraculous gift to translate the plates, who must keep them hidden from treasure-seekers. But the angel element muddies the waters, IMHO. If you're going introduce the angel to save the plates from skeptics, why not have the angel bring the plates down from heaven in the first place?

Better yet, since Joseph didn't translate the plates by learning a foreign language and then studying the individual plates, but by covering or hiding the plates and translating with his head in a hat where the words appeared to him, why have plates at all? Why not just have him tell the ancient story as it came to him from God, a la the Quran?
 

Polaris

Active Member
But the angel element muddies the waters, IMHO. If you're going introduce the angel to save the plates from skeptics, why not have the angel bring the plates down from heaven in the first place?

I think part of it was for Joseph's own growth and testing. He was instructed to meet with Moroni once a year for 4 years at that same place. At each of these occasions Joseph received instruction. Moroni at one point warned Joseph against obtaining the plates for personal profit. Maybe that was a real temptation for Joseph and it was a necessary test for him, knowing exactly where the plates were located, to have the patience and trust in God to wait and do what God wanted concerning the plates.

Better yet, since Joseph didn't translate the plates by learning a foreign language and then studying the individual plates, but by covering or hiding the plates and translating with his head in a hat where the words appeared to him, why have plates at all? Why not just have him tell the ancient story as it came to him from God, a la the Quran?

Again we simply don't know the details of the translation process. Apparently the plates were needed to be present for the Urim and Thumim and seer stone to work properly. Certain men were allowed to view the plates and testify as witnesses to them. That is consistent with how God presents truth to mankind -- he establishes witnesses who testify, then allows the spirit to confirm of the testified truths.
 

KingM

Member
Well, I have issues with that method, not just in the case of Mormonism, but with miraculous visitations by Saints, etc. There are so many thousands of conflicting stories out there I think anyone who needs it should get their own miracle. It work better than being forced to trust what other people say.
 

Polaris

Active Member
It work better than being forced to trust what other people say.

We're not simply forced to trust what other people say. Maybe you're not one who believes in spiritual confirmation or spiritual communication of any form, but many people do and I for one believe that's the only way to come to know any religious or spiritual truth. These passages say it best in my opinion:

"if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."(Moroni 10:4).

"(2) Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. (3) Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation;" (D&C 8:2-3).
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The plates were sacred and were never meant to become a museum article. Further, people were willing to kill Joseph to obtain the plates, so returning them to Moroni was in part likely done both to protect them and Joseph's life. As much as we'd all love to be able to see the plates for ourselves, that has never been the way that God has confirmed religious truths to mankind.
Assuming that there ever were any such plates, which the evidence does not support,

The NT Apostles walked and talked with Christ and witnessed first hand the many miracles that he performed, but Christ appropriately pointed out concerning his divine Sonship: "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
God confirms his religious truths through spiritual means, not physical evidence.
Once again, the invisible and the non-existent bear a dramatic resemblance.
 

KingM

Member
We're not simply forced to trust what other people say. Maybe you're not one who believes in spiritual confirmation or spiritual communication of any form, but many people do and I for one believe that's the only way to come to know any religious or spiritual truth. These passages say it best in my opinion:

"if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."(Moroni 10:4).

"(2) Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. (3) Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation;" (D&C 8:2-3).

I've done that. Not just with the Book of Mormon but with other religious subjects as well. The answers I've received have been neither a burning in the bosom nor a stupor of thought. The problem is, I'm an evidence sort of person, not one who feels lots of spiritual feelings. I'll admit that.

What I figure is that if God wants me to follow some path then he'll appeal to my intellect, since this is how I make my decisions, not through emotions. I don't think this is an unreasonble request. After all, He made me this way; He knows what makes me believe or disbelieve.

Since God has not done so (neither has He sent me spiritual experiences), I can only conclude that convincing me is not a particular priority of His. Or maybe He's happy with the unchurched way I'm living right now.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Assuming that there ever were any such plates, which the evidence does not support,

Testimony from eye-witnesses is a valid form of evidence.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? Once again, the invisible and the non-existent bear a dramatic resemblance.
Testimony from eye-witnesses is a valid form of evidence.
 

Polaris

Active Member
I've done that. Not just with the Book of Mormon but with other religious subjects as well. The answers I've received have been neither a burning in the bosom nor a stupor of thought. The problem is, I'm an evidence sort of person, not one who feels lots of spiritual feelings. I'll admit that.

That's fine, though I believe you're sufficiently capable of spiritual feelings, "practice makes perfect" applies to many aspects of life.

You're clearly well-versed in LDS scripture so there's probably not much more I can say. Based on the principles that I firmly believe, the only things that could keep the spirit from manifesting to you the truth include:

- a lack of real intent and humility
- a lack of faith in Christ and his ability to answer
- a lack of spiritual readiness - the Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy temples
- a lack of effort - sometimes God answers in his own time and often I believe that comes after allowing us to exert effort and patience to demonstrate our true desire.

But if you've honestly done this then I don't know what to say. God will ultimately be the judge.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
The plates were sacred and were never meant to become a museum article. Further, people were willing to kill Joseph to obtain the plates, so returning them to Moroni was in part likely done both to protect them and Joseph's life.

And as history has shown, even if Joseph Smith had the plates in his possession, he wouldn't ever have to produce them, his physical existence was already endangered.

Even if all one does is claim to know God, people want to do one of two things, they either want to kill you or build a religion around you.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
That's fine, though I believe you're sufficiently capable of spiritual feelings, "practice makes perfect" applies to many aspects of life.

You're clearly well-versed in LDS scripture so there's probably not much more I can say. Based on the principles that I firmly believe, the only things that could keep the spirit from manifesting to you the truth include:

- a lack of real intent and humility
- a lack of faith in Christ and his ability to answer
- a lack of spiritual readiness - the Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy temples
- a lack of effort - sometimes God answers in his own time and often I believe that comes after allowing us to exert effort and patience to demonstrate our true desire.

But if you've honestly done this then I don't what to say. God will ultimately be the judge.

Or you could be wrong but hey it is possible we all might be wrong isn't it?
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
look, there are no plates, there never were any plates, It's very convient to have the plates disappear. And in case as I've pointed out, the text they are/were supposed to be written in, ie Reformed Egyptian is a total fabrication. No such text ever existed in the ancient World, period, non, zero, zilch. So how come Smith could translate a non-existent text ? And why oh why, couldn't the angel write the plates in the language of the time , like Hebrew. It's laughable :)

Melissa G
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Read this, this is EXACTLY how it is.

A good deal has been said about the authorship—therefore, the divine origins—of the Book of Mormon. But then there has always been a lot said about it ever since it first rolled off the old E. B. Grandin press in downtown Palmyra, New York, on 26 March 1830.

Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson: “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it.

“Yes, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion—the keystone of our testimony, the keystone of our doctrine, and the keystone in the witness of our Lord and Savior” (A Witness and a Warning, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1988, page 19).

To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church—everything—rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

Not everything in life is so black and white, but it seems the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our belief is exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

I feel about this as C. S. Lewis once said about the divinity of Christ: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: [that is,] ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to” (Mere Christianity, New York: The Macmillan Company, 1960, pages 40–41).

I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is, or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all. But let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.

As the word of God has always been—and I testify again that is purely and simply and precisely what the Book of Mormon is—this record is “quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow” (D&C 6:2). The Book of Mormon is that quick and that powerful for us. And it certainly is that sharp. Nothing in our history and nothing in our message cuts to the chase faster than our uncompromising declaration that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. On this issue we draw a line in the sand.

May I make it very clear where I stand regarding Joseph Smith, a stance taken because of the Book of Mormon. I testify out of the certainty of my soul that Joseph Smith entertained an angel and received at his hand an ancient set of gold plates. I testify of that as surely as if I had, with the three witnesses, seen the angel Moroni or, with the three and the eight witnesses, seen and handled the plates.

It was the Book of Mormon that changed my life, told me the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored, and immersed me in the Church, heart and soul. I hold it in a category sacred to me among all the world’s literature. It stands preeminent in my intellectual and spiritual life, the classic of all classics, a reaffirmation of the Holy Bible, a voice from the dust, a witness for Christ, the word of the Lord unto salvation.

True or False

By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
That's just alot of personal opinion, and hearsay. I hold that the Chuch of the Latter Day Saints is a house built of cards, pull one out and the whole thing collapses. I find it amusing that so many people in this age of scientific knowledge have suspended ratonality in favour of irrationality.

~M
 

Polaris

Active Member
Reformed Egyptian is a total fabrication. No such text ever existed in the ancient World, period, non, zero, zilch. So how come Smith could translate a non-existent text ? And why oh why, couldn't the angel write the plates in the language of the time , like Hebrew. It's laughable

Your knowledge (or lack thereof) of the argument is laughable. You're right "reformed egyption" did not exist in the old world it was created in the new world, in the Americas, just as many languages have been reformed from their origins.

Joseph was able to translate such a text through the power of God.

The angel didn't write the plates, prophets who lived on the American continent between 600BC and 400AD did.
 
That's just alot of personal opinion, and hearsay. I hold that the Chuch of the Latter Day Saints is a house built of cards, pull one out and the whole thing collapses. I find it amusing that so many people in this age of scientific knowledge have suspended ratonality in favour of irrationality.

~M

So this is what you do with your time? Try to break down other people's religions?

And here I thought Pagans were supposed to be open-minded people. :sarcastic
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
Sorry, but I find your defense of the indefensible predictable, I wouldn't expect anything less. Logical, you really believe that they couldn 't write in Hebrew ? So they invented a script based on Egyptian whilst in the America's , oh please lol. I give you alot of credit though. Your a good poster and a stauch defender of your faith.

Melissa G
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
So this is what you do with your time? Try to break down other people's religions?

And here I thought Pagans were supposed to be open-minded people. :sarcastic

Not really, I don't need to try, it's all too easy. Paganism follows the natural cycles of the earth, which are observable and meaningful. We have no prophets, and false promises of redemption. I'm open minded about harmony in living with the earth mother.

Melissa G
 

Polaris

Active Member
Logical, you really believe that they couldn 't write in Hebrew ? So they invented a script based on Egyptian whilst in the America's

Why is that such a hard concept? They came over knowing both Hebrew and Egyptian. After 1000 years of being isolated from the Middle East it makes plenty of sense that their Egyptian would have evolved to some "reformed" form. It's really not a difficult concept.
 
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