IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Because the story is about a family and a people who live in Canaan, not India. India has its own stories. It is absolutely ridiculous that you think you can misappropriate the story in this way.
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Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)
- Thread starter River Sea
- Start date
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- Tags
- egypt exodus indus valley
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Compare the conventional geography with this and it may begin to make sense.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
ROFL It doesn't. Your suggestion is so ridiculous that it is beyond words.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Ok. It is sad that you are not willing to solve the problems of geography in the Bible. Let us rest here.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
What more do you know about this name, Bethel?
It's interesting that there are three Semitic names: Ai, Bethel, and Canaan.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
My understanding is that Ai is the Site of Ghuram.
Bethel is a place west of Ghuram on the banks of the river Ghaggar and Canaan is the name of the larger area where both Ai and Bethel are located.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Location of Hill if Ai to the east; and Ghaggar River to the west of Bethel. Photo: Adapted from Google Earth by Author @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Thank you for explaining this.
Interesting seeing Abraham's tent. What was that about a tent?
Did Abraham (Rama) stay there for long?
How did they make tents back when?
Because usually there's buildings made from burned-bake bricks, or were there mainly tents during the Abrahamic (Rama) era and no burned-bake bricks yet, needing a lot of straw? 50% of straw needed to make burned-bake bricks
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Personally, I think that the tent is an interpolation. Abraham must have lived in a city which was probably located on the mount of Ghuram. The tent was an interpolation to make it consistent with the biblical narrative of him being a shepherd.
Tamino
Active Member
Let's do some basic math, shall we?
How much, exactly, is "1% by weight"?
And are we considering the weight of the fresh, moist mud brick or the fully dried mud brick?
Let's assume it's dried brick... I looked up the dry weight of clay and sand (the main components of mud bricks) and even took the lighter end of the range at 15 kN/m3.
That is a weight of 1529.6 kilograms per cubic meter, if the entire brick is dry and does not contain any straw.
If we assume a size of one brick at 33x20x10 cm you can fit 15 bricks into 1m3 and the m3 would yield 150 bricks.
If I want to replace 1% of that weight with straw, how much would that be?
1% of 1529... I'd have to add about 15 kilograms of straw per cubic meter or 150 bricks, right?
Well, a handy list for farmers, helping with volume calculations for feed and bedding, tells me that 1m3 of loose straw weighs about 40 kilograms, so I will need about 1/3 of this volume to get to 15kg of straw. 0.33 m3
A nice, large round basket of 60cm diameter and 40cm height has a volume of 0.11 m3
Conclusion: to make 150 mud bricks that contain only "1% in weight" of straw as tempering... Still requires 3 large baskets of straw that needs to be gathered, transported and cut into small bits.
(And that's if we're calculating with the most generous estimates of the given material)
Just saying.
I mean, I don't think any of your "exodus from India" arguments are very strong, but even this one does not turn out to work very well.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
So straw is fuel in making burnt baked bricks.
@Tamino I'm looking forward to what @Bharat Jhunjhunwala will say about this as you asked detailed questions.
Meanwhile, I'll also further research. Because I want to.
After this post: I'll be looking further to your questions @Tamino
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Maybe my question isn't a question due to straw being the fuel in making burnt baked bricks. So no straw in brick then due to straw is fuel?
I'll ask anyways. As I'm researching bricks further.
Does straw help burn these bricks compared to other ways to burn bricks? Can other ways of making bricks also be called burnt-bake bricks, or only an amount of straw is needed to qualify for this name, burnt-bake bricks?
If Egypt has lots of stones, did this cause no need to make lots of bricks due to already having stone to build from, and that Indus Valley doesn't have much stone, but look at all the mountains? So these mountains in Indus Valley don't have hardly any stones, really. What are mountains made of in Indus Valley, and how does one grow plant fiber in the mountain area to even gather lots of straw later? Wouldn't it be better to grow plants on flat lands?
The amount of straw was before burning? So 50% of straw is before burning?
After this post: I'll be looking further to your questions @Tamino
Indus Valley: Exodus of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses
Indus Valley: Exodus of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses: Biblical scholars mostly believe that the Exodus took place from Egypt. James K. Hoffmeier has provided evidence for the same
www.commonprophets.com
Straw is used as a binding substance in the making of mud bricks and as fuel in making baked bricks. The Biblical Archaeology Society Staff says that only 0.6 per cent straw by weight is added as a binder in making mud bricks.[6] In comparison, my discussions with brick kiln owners in India indicate that about one-half of the cost of production of making baked bricks consists of straw.
Mud bricks made in Egypt “rarely added straw temper,” and baked bricks were used only sparingly.[7] In comparison, baked bricks were the main construction material in the Indus Valley, including at the site of Chanhu Daro, which we suggest was the Biblical Mitsrayim.[8] The conflict over collection of straw is, therefore, more likely to have happened in the Indus Valley. The baked bricks made here required large amounts of straw.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)
But one need not stone the argument of our friend @Bharat Jhunjhunwala , he might be catching at a straw(/s) to bake bricks to make as strong his argument as a rock; some times the peer review people have the capacity to make a mountain out of a molehill, one never knows, please, right, if not wrong?
Regards
True Egypt has lots of stones, must be admitted, and Egypt doesn't need straws to bake the bricks, Okay, right?
But one need not stone the argument of our friend @Bharat Jhunjhunwala , he might be catching at a straw(/s) to bake bricks to make as strong his argument as a rock; some times the peer review people have the capacity to make a mountain out of a molehill, one never knows, please, right, if not wrong?
Regards
River Sea
Well-Known Member
Q: How did Egyptians make mud bricks?
Ans: Egyptians used mud bricks mainly for the worker’s quarters. The edit about one percent straw to the mud as a binder. The mud blind itself does not hold together. So some amount of straw is added to give it strength and they use it to dry in the sun and use those mud bricks.
@Tamino
I would think when Mud is still wet, because how would one weigh straw after it's mixed in with the whole brick? So what if weighing the straw to be about 1%, then knowing how much is added? So what would this be? I don't even know.
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
So was this straw weighted when mud was wet or already dried?
What's this:
Add straw. While the composition of the mud will affect the exact proportions, as a general rule, add a half pound of straw for every cubic foot of mud mixture
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River Sea
Well-Known Member
How to Make a Mudbrick
While not everyone has the time and resources to replicate an Iron Age gate or Byzantine mosaic, anyone can learn how to make a mudbrick!
How to Make a Mudbrick
- Mix topsoil and water to create a thick mud.
- Add straw. While the composition of the mud will affect the exact proportions, as a general rule, add a half pound of straw for every cubic foot of mud mixture. If you have access to grain chaff (a byproduct of threshing), you can use that as temper. If not, chop straw into very small pieces—called straw chaff—and use that.
- Knead the mud mixture with your bare feet for four days.
- Once it has fermented (after four days of kneading), leave the mixture alone for a few days.
- Knead the mixture again on the day you plan to form your mudbricks.
- Pour the mud mixture into molds (the shape of your choosing) and let them solidify in the molds for at least 20 minutes.
- Remove from molds and deposit on a drying floor layered with sand and straw to prevent the bricks from sticking to the floor itself.
- Let the bricks dry for a week.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Tamino @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
imaginativehomeschool.blogspot.com
For a more authentic experience, and sturdier bricks, add straw ( around a half pound of straw for every cubic foot of mud mixture), and then KNEAD DAILY FOR FOUR DAYS, then leave the mixture alone for a few days before using (kneading the mixture one more time on the day you use it). This allows the straw to ferment which creates a chemical reaction in the mud that makes them three times stronger than regular clay.
Making Mud Bricks
The bricks shown here were made with a mix of garden sand/soil mixed in, and came out kind of crumbly. "Texas clay" straight out o...
imaginativehomeschool.blogspot.com
For a more authentic experience, and sturdier bricks, add straw ( around a half pound of straw for every cubic foot of mud mixture), and then KNEAD DAILY FOR FOUR DAYS, then leave the mixture alone for a few days before using (kneading the mixture one more time on the day you use it). This allows the straw to ferment which creates a chemical reaction in the mud that makes them three times stronger than regular clay.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
I think wet mud, but is the straw dry or wet before adding to the mud. I never thought of this before.
What would happen if adding wet straw vs dry straw?
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Tamino
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Let us take your calculation to be correct for one cubic meter of mud bricks you require three baskets of straw, but one cubic meter of mud brick is a large amount and requires much heavier work than collecting three baskets of straw. Compare this with the amount of straw that you would require to burn the same one cubic meter of bricks. I am sure you will find that the straw required is about 100 times that you that can be used as tempering. We should not make this type of study on standalone basis, but always make it on a comparative basis and I am sure, no matter how you calculate the straw required in burnt bricks will be, much more than required in mud bricks.
Tamino
Active Member
Oh, I don't contest at all that burnt bricks in the Indian style require more straw than unbaked bricks of the Egyptian kind.
I just want to say that the scriptural detail about Jews having to collect their own straw in no way disproves an Egyptian location for the Exodus, since at least a certain amount of it is required, and having to obtain it is a noticable extra workload and hassle.
...
...
And anyways, the whole thing is entirely speculation and has very little weight as evidence:
If some guy in Babylon or Canaan is writing that in the first millennium, as I suspect it happened: What the hell does he know about the composition of Egyptian -style or Indian-style mud bricks, it's far more likely that he just wrote what would make sense in terms of Babylonian or Canaanite brick production.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Tamino
I wondered about location either India or Egypt: due to in Egypt there's a lot of stone to build from where in India there's not a lot of stone to build from so needed to make burnt-bake bricks and or even more mud bricks.
My thinking is even if Egypt made some bricks such as mud bricks, didn't need as many bricks due to relying on stone to build from
So when so and so ask to gather straw, why needing to gather when already relies on stone for their buildings
Is the Pyramid in Egypt made out of stone?
AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab
The pyramids in Egypt are made of many different types of stone, including limestone, granite, and mortar:
Even if there's some stone in India, how much is it able to rely on to build from, if not enough, then relying on bricks compares to Egypt, more with ease to build from stone, so no need for many bricks.
If they can build with stone, why need bricks?
India lacks stone, so it needs bricks and reasons for lots of straw, compared to Egypt, which has plenty of stone to build from, even if using mud bricks, yet less of and not enough to need to gather straw at that time, when so and so demanded.
enrouteindianhistory.com
Baked bricks saw widespread use largely during the Mature Harappan phase.
Compared to Egypt? How many buildings are made from Bricks compare to build with stone?
en.wikipedia.org
In Egypt: This is stone with no straw needed
So questions: how much stone is there in India compared to Egypt? If Egypt has lots of stone, would Egyptians prefer to build with stone or would they ignore the stone and make bricks with straw?
India doesn't have a lot of stone, so it can't rely on stone to build from, so there is a need to make bricks that use straw. Or does India have a lot of stone too to use, but then if so, how come in India they'd ignored the stone and made bricks then that needed lots of straw?
That's my question?
I wondered about location either India or Egypt: due to in Egypt there's a lot of stone to build from where in India there's not a lot of stone to build from so needed to make burnt-bake bricks and or even more mud bricks.
My thinking is even if Egypt made some bricks such as mud bricks, didn't need as many bricks due to relying on stone to build from
So when so and so ask to gather straw, why needing to gather when already relies on stone for their buildings
Is the Pyramid in Egypt made out of stone?
AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab
The pyramids in Egypt are made of many different types of stone, including limestone, granite, and mortar:
- Limestone: The Great Pyramid of Giza's inner core was built with limestone quarried from the Giza plateau. The pyramid also had a white limestone casing that was polished to make the sides smooth and shiny.
Even if there's some stone in India, how much is it able to rely on to build from, if not enough, then relying on bricks compares to Egypt, more with ease to build from stone, so no need for many bricks.
If they can build with stone, why need bricks?
India lacks stone, so it needs bricks and reasons for lots of straw, compared to Egypt, which has plenty of stone to build from, even if using mud bricks, yet less of and not enough to need to gather straw at that time, when so and so demanded.
Building Blocks of History: Tracing India’s Brick Evolution
Brick is the construction material we’ve all seen. As it turns out, bricks are literally the building blocks of history. The humble brick stands as an enduring testament to the rise and fall of civilizations, narrating tales of power.
enrouteindianhistory.com
Baked bricks saw widespread use largely during the Mature Harappan phase.
Compared to Egypt? How many buildings are made from Bricks compare to build with stone?
Architecture of Egypt - Wikipedia
In Egypt: This is stone with no straw needed
So questions: how much stone is there in India compared to Egypt? If Egypt has lots of stone, would Egyptians prefer to build with stone or would they ignore the stone and make bricks with straw?
India doesn't have a lot of stone, so it can't rely on stone to build from, so there is a need to make bricks that use straw. Or does India have a lot of stone too to use, but then if so, how come in India they'd ignored the stone and made bricks then that needed lots of straw?
That's my question?
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Tamino
Active Member
Only tombs and temples were built from stone.
Private homes, storage houses and even royal palaces were usually built from sun-dried mud brick.
Stone is far more expensive and difficult to obtain. You need to find a suitable quarry, extract the stone, transport it to your construction site, and chisel it into a suitable shape.
Mud brick, on the other hand, can be easily created on-site with readily available material and shaped with wooden implements.
Even if you take into account that much stone was just stolen from older buildings and reused, mud brick is still the cheaper building material.
Unbaked bricks are vulnerable to water, but in a desert climate with very little rainfall they are a perfectly viable construction material and even provide excellent insulation against the heat.