Where did Good People go Before Christ Died on the Cross?

[rusra02]

Do you believe that Christians still wait in the grave now until the rapture or that Christians go directly to Heaven after they die? I've heard both views. I believe that Christians can go directly to Heaven after they die. I believe the rapture is for Christians still living when Christ returns.

I believe the Bible teaches only a limited number, "144,000, ...have been bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (Revelation 14:1-5) These ones Christ "made...to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Revelation 5:9,10) The vast majority of true Christians hope to enjoy everlasting life here on earth, under the rulership of Christ and the 144,000 chosen to be kings and priests over the earth. Thus, as Jesus said, "Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)

 

[viole]

Very good question. We all go to the grave, and yes Jesus is the only way to salvation. Not all people will be saved. Adam, and Eve, and all others who died at a judgment from God will not be saved. The off springs of the fallen angels will not be saved. At the end of the 1,000 year rule of Jesus, those who join Satan when he is released will not be saved. What is death like? It is sleep with no thoughts, thus there is no time. Jesus said from the second we die to when he brings us back will seem like just walking through a doorway. Jesus said all who believe in him will be given life...but that live won't start until we pass our final test...stay true to God, and don't join Satan's rebellion.

I am quite confident that if I ever experience Jesus landing on earth to start His 1,000 years rule, I would never join Satan rebellion. I mean, who would be so irrational to do that?

But I have a question for you. If Jesus really lands on earth and we all have clear evidence of His existence and experience real-time the unfolding of the prophecy, wouldn't that be an interference with our free will and a massive advantage against people who never experienced that? I mean, for sure I would be more prone to submit to Jesus when I see Him than I would today.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

there is nothing in the Bible that says anyone has gone to Heaven or will go the Heaven. in fact it says "no man has ascended into Heaven"

Yes, I have read this before. Though I can't locate the actual verse, I believe it is in the Old Testament. Could you supply the reference? I believe Christ changed this rule as we have the words "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). This was said to one of the thieves who was crucified on a cross beside Jesus, after he repented (Luke 23:39-43).

I was taught that before Christ died on the cross, no-one could enter Heaven, no matter how righteous they were in God's sight. This is because the sacrificial system was imperfect. It could not remove the stain of sins on a person's soul forever. It was a temporary thing. The sacrifice offered for sin wiped the sins up until that point in time but not future sins. Therefore, sacrifices had to be continually offered in an endless cycle. Christ offered one sacrifice once and for all (Hebrews 9:16-28), therefore abolishing the old system and starting a new one.

Jesus told a story about a rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in Luke 16:19-31. I was taught that this story teaches us about what happened to righteous people such as Abraham and Lazarus, who passed away before Jesus Christ died. They went to a place called 'Abraham's Bosom", or "Abraham's Side", or "Abraham's Place". It was like a waiting place. After Christ died, all those righteous people waiting, were taken with Christ up into Heaven, with him, alone with the repentant thief.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

My church is my own body. "God" doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. The only place "God" dwells in within me, my own temple.

People go where they always go. Birth and death are the same things. Into another body somewhere.

Jesus and the disciples discussed reincarnation with zero denial.

Can you provide Biblical verses to support your last statement? I'd like to discuss this further with you.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This was one of the points made by the Greek Celsus. If the incarnation made a difference, then it was unfair to those born before it. And if it didn't, then what was the point?

See my reply to #7.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

For some of the dead,it has already been decided that they will not inherit everlasting life.Also,some of them are part of the first fruits, and will be brought up first.Not all go to heaven.There is no hell of torment either where people will be tortured in fire forever.The earth is where those who follow Gods plan will reside forever after all is complete.Those who will walk with Jesus Christ will reside in heaven where Gods government resides.

Can you provide some sources for your statements? I'd like to discuss this with you further.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

A bunch of them came out of their graves and walked around Jerusalem when Jesus died. Where are they now and how come their story isn't written anywhere outside the Bible?

Matthew 27: 52, 53

They were not important people. It is assumed that they died again when they reached old age.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

disciple says they went to heaven. I have asked several times for anyone to give one single Bible verse that uses the word heaven and says anyone has gone there or will go there. no one has yet quoted one

Please read my reply and references. Sorry for my late post.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This is good question.

If Trinity is really from Christianity then what about the generations before birth of trinity(after Jesus pbuh?

Throughout the Old Testament, there are references to God coming/ incarnating as a man. For a few examples see the stories of Abraham in the Bible (in Genesis) and also Jacob, who wrestled with God (Genesis 32: 22-31). Christians believe that when God came in human form in the Old Testament, it was Christ.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Very good question. We all go to the grave, and yes Jesus is the only way to salvation. Not all people will be saved. Adam, and Eve, and all others who died at a judgment from God will not be saved. The off springs of the fallen angels will not be saved. At the end of the 1,000 year rule of Jesus, those who join Satan when he is released will not be saved. What is death like? It is sleep with no thoughts, thus there is no time. Jesus said from the second we die to when he brings us back will seem like just walking through a doorway. Jesus said all who believe in him will be given life...but that live won't start until we pass our final test...stay true to God, and don't join Satan's rebellion.

Can you provide a reference to support your statement that "Adam and Eve will not be saved". My understanding is that Adam and Eve could have repented, later on, after they were expelled from the Garden. If so, then could they not have joined Abraham in the "Waiting place" mentioned in Luke 16:19-31? And then, later, after the ascension of Christ, couldn't they have been taken up to Heaven with him?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

in islam faith people who never heard about islam..........will enter al-araf (border between hell and heaven) in afterlife.....

It sounds similar to what Jesus mentioned in Luke 16:19-31......a waiting place.....where Abraham was.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Jesus dying on the cross made no difference what so ever, nothing has changed, people still do what they always have done.

I would beg to differ. I believe that the world is a better place because of Christ. Through out history, Christians have set up schools, hospitals, orphanages, and changed Western society due to their belief in Christ.....as well as educating and civilizing many primitive people groups, who would still be in the jungles if it hadn't been for the efforts of Christian missionaries.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Wouldn't they go to the same place the Christian dead go now? The grave. There to await resurrection.

That is one popular mainstream Christian view.

 

[arthra]

Baha'is believe that there have been a series of Manifestations of God.. going back in the past cycle to Adam and before Him... Anyone who recognizes the Station of a Manifestation such as Abraham, Moses, etc. is saved. So in the time of Abraham anyone who recognized His Station was saved and is close or near the Divine Bestowals.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

My father was a pastor for 10 years and later left Christianity. He read books for 4 hours per day throughout my childhood. He knew the Bible well and explained to me the answers to any questions I had. One question was the one I put as the title of this thread. My father gave me an answer. Throughout my life, I have listened to hundreds of sermons but this topic never came up. My question to Christians: What were you taught about this in your church? My question to others: What were you told when you asked this question? And did you ever ask it?

There are generally three different answers to this.

The first is the Jewish perspective which the old testament is based on. The Jewish perspective is that usually there is no actual heaven or hell. They don't talk much about the afterlife and the types of afterlife that people believe in vary. Some believe that there is a proportional amount of pleasure or pain that one deserves based on your actions in this life and some don't believe in an afterlife at all. To many Jews it is not a god of death it is a god of this life.

The second would be the fire and brimstone christian version which I believe to be incorrect even theologically. (I don't believe in any of these as an atheist but for the sake of argument even theologically this viewpoint doesn't hold up) In this one others would have gone to a light version of hell or purgatory depending on if you are Catholic of protestant.

The last version seems to be the most theologically and biblical sound from the basis of Christianity. Its where there is no "hell" so to speak but rather it is an actual death. Your soul dies without being able to go to heaven and you simply stop existing. So its not that you will be punished for all eternity but that you will simply not be in heaven. Apparently there is some kind of mechanism in which people are punished for their sins if they have done great wrong mentioned in the new testament. as well as many other quotes suck as "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord".

But this is still one of the key contradictions of the bible in my opinion. How can an all loving god let so many go without a chance at heaven if he exists. Why single out one tribe and give them all the opportunity in the world while giving a literal giant middle finger to the rest of humanity? It seem obvious that this is a tribal orientated god whose worshipers believe themselves to be special in this vast world.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I am quite confident that if I ever experience Jesus landing on earth to start His 1,000 years rule, I would never join Satan rebellion. I mean, who would be so irrational to do that?

But I have a question for you. If Jesus really lands on earth and we all have clear evidence of His existence and experience real-time the unfolding of the prophecy, wouldn't that be an interference with our free will and a massive advantage against people who never experienced that? I mean, for sure I would be more prone to submit to Jesus when I see Him than I would today.

Ciao

- viole

That is a great question. Yes, it seems unfair that the people, like Thomas in the Bible, who never believe unless they see Christ first hand, get saved. It seems that God was or is more generous in allowing them to see more evidence than the average person. And likewise, Christ gives some visions of himself to a select few, which seems unfair to those who miss out. And when he comes again, those who will see him will seem to have "a massive [unfair] advantage" too.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Baha'is believe that there have been a series of Manifestations of God.. going back in the past cycle to Adam and before Him... Anyone who recognizes the Station of a Manifestation such as Abraham, Moses, etc. is saved. So in the time of Abraham anyone who recognized His Station was saved and is close or near the Divine Bestowals.

Thank you for sharing the Bahai position. Could you explain what you mean by "station" in more detail?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

There are generally three different answers to this.

The first is the Jewish perspective which the old testament is based on. The Jewish perspective is that usually there is no actual heaven or hell. They don't talk much about the afterlife and the types of afterlife that people believe in vary. Some believe that there is a proportional amount of pleasure or pain that one deserves based on your actions in this life and some don't believe in an afterlife at all. To many Jews it is not a god of death it is a god of this life.

The second would be the fire and brimstone christian version which I believe to be incorrect even theologically. (I don't believe in any of these as an atheist but for the sake of argument even theologically this viewpoint doesn't hold up) In this one others would have gone to a light version of hell or purgatory depending on if you are Catholic of protestant.

The last version seems to be the most theologically and biblical sound from the basis of Christianity. Its where there is no "hell" so to speak but rather it is an actual death. Your soul dies without being able to go to heaven and you simply stop existing. So its not that you will be punished for all eternity but that you will simply not be in heaven. Apparently there is some kind of mechanism in which people are punished for their sins if they have done great wrong mentioned in the new testament. as well as many other quotes suck as "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord".

But this is still one of the key contradictions of the bible in my opinion. How can an all loving god let so many go without a chance at heaven if he exists. Why single out one tribe and give them all the opportunity in the world while giving a literal giant middle finger to the rest of humanity? It seem obvious that this is a tribal orientated god whose worshipers believe themselves to be special in this vast world.

Thank you for sharing. Some Buddhists believe that when we die, we just get absorbed into the universe...we just get snuffled out like a candle in the wind.....and that is it.

I believe that God is a fair and just judge and that he has set eternity in the hearts of all men (meaning everyone can see evidence for God's existence such as in creation, even without a teacher). He knows our hearts and what we have done.....and if we have never heard the gospel of Christ, then he will be fair.....I don't believe in the doctrine of predestination (though people with this view can support it with verses from the Bible). I believe everyone is given a chance to find God and follow him during their lifetime.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Thank you for sharing. Some Buddhists believe that when we die, we just get absorbed into the universe...we just get snuffled out like a candle in the wind.....and that is it.

I believe that God is a fair and just judge and that he has set eternity in the hearts of all men (meaning everyone can see evidence for God's existence such as in creation, even without a teacher). He knows our hearts and what we have done.....and if we have never heard the gospel of Christ, then he will be fair.....I don't believe in the doctrine of predestination (though people with this view can support it with verses from the Bible). I believe everyone is given a chance to find God and follow him during their lifetime.

If I may ask a question then.

If everyone has an equal chance of finding god in their lifetime what was the point of having a chosen people prior to Jesus? it seems a bit of a contradiction.

 

[Nada]

Can you provide some sources for your statements? I'd like to discuss this with you further.

Well, for your specific question about where did good people go before Jesus died? We know that according to Jesus Christ own words no one has ever ascended to heaven except the son of man.Jesus explained this to Nicodemus.

John 3:12,13. …12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So, here from Jesus own mouth, in scripture, we can clearly see that only he has gone to heaven.

Those who died before went into Sheol,Hades,a grave.All did.Even God's chosen ones like King David.

Acts 13:36 "Now when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed.

When people die they know nothing and return to the earth.They do not go to heaven like many assume.They go to a grave and await.Just like Jesus displayed while on earth.Unlike David,Jesus body did not decay.He was resurrected by God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Acts 2:31.Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

Here we have a quote from Psalm.It speaks of Jesus not staying in the grave but being resurrected as promised as a witness to the world.This is why Jesus is called the first and the last.He was the first to be resurrected to eternal life,by God personally.And the Last.Jesus himself resurrected people while he was preaching.Like his good friend Lazarus.Lazarus though was not resurrected to eternal life on earth.He was resurrected back to a mortal life.Jeusus on the other hand was the first to be resurrected to eternal life as a spirit.When Lazarus died, he went back to a grave,not heaven.Jesus ascended to heaven after 40 days of walking the earth appearing to people.