Where did Good People go Before Christ Died on the Cross?

[JoStories]

I personally don't think there was anything special about the Israelites that attracted God's attention. He had a long term plan in mind....in regards to the salvation of mankind. The Jews didn't understand this plan. I think that many Israelites wrongly came to believe that because God had chosen them for a close relationship (for his purpose), he had therefore rejected the rest of mankind. But I can see how it would be easy to come to this conclusion. The Jews believed that they were special but God could have chosen to use any people group....for example the Chinese or Indians.

How do you know that God didn't choose the Jews or the Chinese or the "Indians", and I hope you are referring to people of India and NOT my NA heritage. We prefer Native Americans or First Peoples. How do you know God is not big enough to be able to have a face, a word I don't find particularly good at explaining this, that would appeal to every faith on earth? You base this understanding on a book. A book compiled and written by men, and which had many other gospels not included as these men considered them 'heretical'. Who is to know what was truly the words of God, such as one finds in Thomas? What about Thomas makes that book heretical and what if it truly is the words of Jesus Christ? Do you not see how exclusive this faith is?

 

[psychoslice]

Good people went nowhere, they just stopped living, their life was over, just like all of us, we die, and that's it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

From what I see in the scriptures, I believe that before Christ the physical bodies of all go to the grave to "sleep" to await the resurrection, but their conscious soul/spirit goes to either of two destinations: believers went to Abram's bosom and non-believers to torment in Hades...
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ Luke 16:19-26

After the work of Christ on the cross the physical body still goes to the grave, again to await the resurrection, while the soul/spirit of non-believers go to the same temporary place of torment as the rich man in the account above, the soul/spirit of believers go to be with the Lord...
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Your interpretation of "sleep" is exactly as I see it. However, it doesn't bother me whether "sleep" is interpreted the other way, where the soul is still with the body in the ground, awaiting the resurrection.

From what I see in the scriptures, I believe that before Christ the physical bodies of all go to the grave to "sleep" to await the resurrection, but their conscious soul/spirit goes to either of two destinations: believers went to Abram's bosom and non-believers to torment in Hades...
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ Luke 16:19-26

After the work of Christ on the cross the physical body still goes to the grave, again to await the resurrection, while the soul/spirit of non-believers go to the same temporary place of torment as the rich man in the account above, the soul/spirit of believers go to be with the Lord...
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

This is how I see it....exactly. Thank you for posting the entire passage.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

A "Station" would be the spiritual position of say in this case a Prophet...

I'll provide a few examples of how the word "station" is used:


Not until thou hast grasped the mysteries concealed in that which We shall relate unto thee canst thou hope to attain to the stations of faith and certitude in the Cause of God

~ Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 9

The great ones are from all time in their glorious station, their reality is luminous from the beginning, the reality that causes the qualities of God to appear, but the day of their manifestation is the day when they proclaim themselves of this earth.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 52

It is accepted, clear and established that every preceding Manifestation of God has prophesied the appearance of his successor to the people in accordance with their stations and capabilities

Provisional Translations, Tablet of the Son (Jesus)

Thank you for sharing that. It's a bit clearer now.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

"Happy the poor in spirit -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens."
"Happy the clean in heart -- because they shall see God."
"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."
"What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."
"Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."

Jesus says nothing about being born again when he speaks about these people going to heaven. Why? They don't need to be. Very simple.

Jesus had a conversation with a religious teacher and said "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" John 3:3. I would argue that "clean in heart" and "solitary and elect"....and "those...who do the will of [the] father" are born again.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thank you for the reply, the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Even if anything has been mainstream and dogmatic for thousands of years, and popular belief... Doesn't make anything true.

The heritage Jews thought Jesus was a reincarnated prophet.

Gilgal- the circle/wheel of life, and the escape.

I've never died, I wasn't afraid of being born, I'm not afraid to die. Same things. All I've ever known was being conscious. It was appointed once for me to "spiritually" die and finally crucify my ego and resurrect internally.

You are free to have any opinion you want about the meaning of verses in the Bible....but just making claims based on one verse doesn't prove anything in my mind. Can you provide other extra-Biblical sources that support your view that "Jews thought Jesus was a reincarnated prophet"? If it was a common belief in Bible times, why is there no detailed teaching about reincarnation mentioned in the Bible? I would like to start a thread on reincarnation actually but for now, I've got a lot of unfinished discussions to address, before I can open it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Yeah, it takes a non-Jew to explain Jewish scripture to the Jews. What’s up with them Jews? You would think they would have wised up by now.

I don't know how to take this sentence. It can be read more than one way.

 

[psychoslice]

The so called Christ never really brought anything to the earth, all he really did is bring confusion, we are better without him, we only need to discover our own true Self, and that is all.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

It is actually what the Bible teaches. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one was called to heaven before Jesus' return, according to Paul. All were "sleeping", just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (ESV)

Since the thief who died alongside Jesus was promised "paradise" not "heaven" it stands to reason that the thief will be resurrected into the earthly paradise under Christ's kingship. (John 5:28, 29) Jesus did not go to heaven straight after his death. When Mary saw him after his resurrection, he told her that he had "not yet ascended to his Father" (John 20:17) He did not return to heaven for 40 days in fact. So the evildoer was not in paradise with Jesus that day. Jesus made the promise to him that day...big difference.



Those who go to heaven are chosen for a specific role as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) Do you imagine everyone in heaven as a king and priest? How could that be? Those who go to heaven are given a spirit body completely free of sin and as a result can be granted immortality. They will not need priests...and kings do not rule other kings.

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for who to perform their duties. John sees the subjects of the heavenly kingdom in Rev 21:2-5....

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

The bride of Christ are his chosen ones. This is the "holy city"......"new Jerusalem"...God's kingdom is seen bringing its rule to a cleansed earth. How wonderful to see no more tears or suffering or pain...and no more death! Those things are now gone forever.

Redeemed mankind will be the subjects of this kingdom. And the Bible indicates that those chosen to rule with Christ will be a finite number, whereas those over whom they rule, will be "a great multitude" praising God and the Lamb for their salvation. (Rev 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14)

Christ's sacrifice was not intended so that everyone could go to heaven. God never intended for ANY human to go to heaven at the beginning. It was Adam's sin that made that necessary. If Adam had not sinned, Christ would never have needed to come and no one would ever have gone to heaven to form a kingdom.

No one seems to understand why there was a need for a savior and a kingdom in the first place.

Thank you for sharing the JW perspective. For Protestants, paradise and Heaven are the same place. I had a JW knock on my door once. He was telling me that you guys don't believe that Jesus is God. Is that a correct JW view?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

The so called Christ never really brought anything to the earth, all he really did is bring confusion, we are better without him, we only need to discover our own true Self, and that is all.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

And that, IMO, is what makes the Christian God into a monster. If one accepts your views of God, that paints God into this selective God that discards so many as to be a cult leader. Those who don't adhere to one book are damned. In essence, you limit God. You place restrictions on how one can view and understand God and that, for me, is untenable. As you say, Jews are not in heaven and that are idolaters and harlots. Is that not making God into a modern day Hitler? Who in the world would care to believe in such a monstrous being? I certainly believe in God but for me, God is nothing like that at all.

What's with the capitals? You actually misunderstand what I am saying. Throughout the Old Testament God worked closely with the Jews. They had a tendency to go astray....and they did....many times. I never said Jews are not in Heaven. Many Jews are in Heaven and many are not. Those who went astray are clearly not in Heaven. Those who stayed true to the teaching of Moses and the other prophets would have been counted as righteous in God's sight. I'm sure I will meet them in Heaven one day. Even when many of the Jews gave up Judaism and started to worship other gods from neighboring nations, God still had a remnant, that were his. You seem to be implying that I'm racist.

 

[JoStories]

What's with the capitals? You actually misunderstand what I am saying. Throughout the Old Testament God worked closely with the Jews. They had a tendency to go astray....and they did....many times. I never said Jews are not in Heaven. Many Jews are in Heaven and many are not. Those who went astray are clearly not in Heaven. Those who stayed true to the teaching of Moses and the other prophets would have been counted as righteous in God's sight. I'm sure I will meet them in Heaven one day. Even when many of the Jews gave up Judaism and started to worship other gods from neighboring nations, God still had a remnant, that were his. You seem to be implying that I'm racist.

Capitals? What capitals? I capitalize God and Jews and NA, and so on, which is perfectly correct, grammar wize. If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. But the way I read this you seem to think God only pertains to the Jews and Christians. That was my point. And in absolutely NO way (yes, I capitalized that to emphasize my answer) did I imply or infer you were a racist.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Why should this Muslim have to 'repent'; a concept I find to be completely opposite that what Christ taught and further, to be about as silly as it can get (no offense), why should this Muslim have to repent and join your faith at all? He was a Muslim after all, and did believe in Allah (God) as he understood God. What is wrong with that? The exclusivity of your faith makes my skin crawl when it comes to an understanding of God and what God may want for us. How do you know, without a shadow of doubt, that my views of God are wrong? Simple answer is that you can't know that this side of death. So the question of who enters heaven or hell becomes moot because of that.

So why does God give Muslims dreams? Why does Christ appear to Muslims? So, why did that Muslim repent? It was his choice. He had been a Muslim his whole life. Why did he decide to make a last minute change? If it is true, as you say, that a Muslim doesn't have to join my faith, then why would Christ interfere in the situation and ask "some" Muslims to become Christians?

Anyway....thanks for your opinions. I'm fine about it, if you don't agree.

 

[Desert Snake]

disciple says they went to heaven. I have asked several times for anyone to give one single Bible verse that uses the word heaven and says anyone has gone there or will go there. no one has yet quoted one

Religion is not just verses. For example, do you think you can read the Torah, /the first part of the Old Testament, and figure out everything that is believed in Judaism? No, of course not. It's exactly the same for most religions.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

How do you know that God didn't choose the Jews or the Chinese or the "Indians", and I hope you are referring to people of India and NOT my NA heritage. We prefer Native Americans or First Peoples. How do you know God is not big enough to be able to have a face, a word I don't find particularly good at explaining this, that would appeal to every faith on earth? You base this understanding on a book. A book compiled and written by men, and which had many other gospels not included as these men considered them 'heretical'. Who is to know what was truly the words of God, such as one finds in Thomas? What about Thomas makes that book heretical and what if it truly is the words of Jesus Christ? Do you not see how exclusive this faith is?

Yes...that is true. Christianity is exclusive. Judaism and Christianity teach that God chose the Jews for a special relationship. According to Christianity, that relationship was for the purpose of introducing salvation to all of mankind, through Jesus Christ. God loves all races and cultures.

I was referring to Indians from India.

So, tell me about your beliefs. Do you have a religion?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Good people went nowhere, they just stopped living, their life was over, just like all of us, we die, and that's it.

Thanks for sharing. If that is so, enjoy life then.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Capitals? What capitals? I capitalize God and Jews and NA, and so on, which is perfectly correct, grammar wize. If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. But the way I read this you seem to think God only pertains to the Jews and Christians. That was my point. And in absolutely NO way (yes, I capitalized that to emphasize my answer) did I imply or infer you were a racist.

Sorry...I chose the wrong word. I didn't mean "capitals". You are using a really large font size which can come across as anger. But I could be wrong as I know my grandfather preferred the larger font due to his failing eyesight.

 

[JoStories]

Yes...that is true. Christianity is exclusive. Judaism and Christianity teach that God chose the Jews for a special relationship. According to Christianity, that relationship was for the purpose of introducing salvation to all of mankind, through Jesus Christ. God loves all races and cultures.

I was referring to Indians from India.

So, tell me about your beliefs. Do you have a religion?

Thanks for clarifying about Indians there sir. I appreciate that. I don't exactly have a religion in the true sense of the word. I follow a Buddhist path but one that includes my belief in God. Many Buddhists don't believe in God but I do. My path is Theravada Buddhism mostly. I believe in reincarnation, and the journey of the soul on its path to enlightenment. I do believe that God is unlimited enough to be able to be God to all faiths. But I also believe that many Christians have fallen from the teachings of Christ and are following Paul and not Jesus nor what Jesus taught. I hope this helps you.

 

[JoStories]

So...I chose the wrong word. I didn't mean "capitals". You are using a really large font size which can come across as anger. But I could be wrong as I know my grandfather preferred the larger font due to his failing eyesight.

Yes, if you read my note at the bottom of my posts, it states that I am legally blind and this size font is not shouting or trying to offend anyone. Its purely for my own ability to see. I hope you understand.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thanks for clarifying about Indians there sir. I appreciate that. I don't exactly have a religion in the true sense of the word. I follow a Buddhist path but one that includes my belief in God. Many Buddhists don't believe in God but I do. My path is Theravada Buddhism mostly. I believe in reincarnation, and the journey of the soul on its path to enlightenment. I do believe that God is unlimited enough to be able to be God to all faiths. But I also believe that many Christians have fallen from the teachings of Christ and are following Paul and not Jesus nor what Jesus taught. I hope this helps you.

Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs with me. It helps me to understand more where you are coming from.