Where did Good People go Before Christ Died on the Cross?

[Nada]

Thanks. But I've already graduated from kindergarten.

That is great news.Congratulations.Here is a gold star for you.Have a nice day.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

the Bible say in Genesis that God made Adam from the dust of the earth. Then God breathed life into that body of mud and it became a living soul. not that God added a soul but the body of mud became a soul. the same word translated as soul is also translated as beast or animal or creature. man does not have a soul but man is a soul. when a boat sank recently they said 400 souls were lost. i think that is the same as 400 people.

 

[JoStories]

Btw, notice the irony here? It's like your saying that I would understand the Bible the way you do, if I didn't have bias? I disagree, completely.

No, actually, no one can read and understand something the same way. We may have some things that we agree or disagree on but I cannot understand your views on faith other than what you say here. And even then, its hard to put into words of language where language hinders this conversations.

 

[JoStories]

I'd like to hear a bit about your papers Jo. I wish to do a Masters of theology in the future. Would you like to share with us about your research?

A goodly deal of my research and papers were combining nursing with theology or rather spirituality. As a spiritual person, I find that I have no right to demand another to follow my path and what path a person walks is clearly their own. I did a lot of research about incorporating religion and spirituality into nursing practice, which is really quite prevalent now. A number of nursing paradigms and theories now include spirituality as an aspect of the holistic whole of the self. Where it pertains to strictly to theology, most of my papers have been about the commonalities of faith and the ubiquitous nature of God within most. Kind of like seeing God as God of the Fifth Mountain, a being that is attainable to every faith. Another passion of mine is mysticism and the commonalities of those throughout faiths as well. That was the subject of my dissertation. And thanks for asking!!

 

[Xenosaga Dragonzord]

in islam religion, people who never heard aboout islam or the message of prophet adam,jesus,muhammad,abraham,etc.......all of them is called Ahl Fatrah or Ahlul fatrah or People of Interval

people who never heard about islam or message from other prophet but they accept Tawhid/Monotheist, all of them will enter paradise in afterlife

people who never heard about islam or message from other prophet and they are non-monotheist people, in afterlife they will enter al-araf (border between hell & heaven). God will give them test, if passed they will go to paradise, if failed hellfire is their home.

“Four types of people will be tested on the day of judgement: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, a mad man, an old aged man and a man who died during fatrah (a period of time when no messenger was sent to people). The deaf man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I cannot hear anything!”. The mad man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while the boys throw animals’ excrement on me!”. The old aged man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I can understand nothing”. And the man who died during a fatrah will say: “Oh Allah, I witnessed no messenger from You”. Then Allah takes a promise from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter hell, and who enters it will find it peace and cool, and who disobeys will be dragged to hell” (Sahih Hadith)

If God Willing........

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

in islam religion, people who never heard aboout islam or the message of prophet adam,jesus,muhammad,abraham,etc.......all of them is called Ahl Fatrah or Ahlul fatrah or People of Interval

people who never heard about islam or message from other prophet but they accept Tawhid/Monotheist, all of them will enter paradise in afterlife

people who never heard about islam or message from other prophet and they are non-monotheist people, in afterlife they will enter al-araf (border between hell & heaven). God will give them test, if passed they will go to paradise, if failed hellfire is their home.

“Four types of people will be tested on the day of judgement: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, a mad man, an old aged man and a man who died during fatrah (a period of time when no messenger was sent to people). The deaf man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I cannot hear anything!”. The mad man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while the boys throw animals’ excrement on me!”. The old aged man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I can understand nothing”. And the man who died during a fatrah will say: “Oh Allah, I witnessed no messenger from You”. Then Allah takes a promise from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter hell, and who enters it will find it peace and cool, and who disobeys will be dragged to hell” (Sahih Hadith)

If God Willing........

Why do you quote hadiths instead of the Koran?

 

[Neo Deist]

DM: You assume 2 things: 1. That I don't know my Bible well, and 2. That I would make a claim that I could support with evidence.

Here is your evidence: For Christians going directly to Heaven see John 14:1-4 and Luke 23:40-43. For the rapture see Matthew 24:40-41. You should know that all Christian doctrine has scriptural support.

In regards to Rev. 20:11-15, these verses refer to Judgement Day. Those in Hell will be judged but in reality they have already had their verdict because they are in Hell. Those in Heaven likewise can be called, but they have already had their verdict too because they are in Heaven. Rev. 21:1-8 (You don't seem to understand the mainstream Christian interpretation of these verses) This is talking about a future event, not about when someone dies. There will be a new Heaven and new Earth.

Thank you for your comments.

I do not assume anything.

John 14:1-4 says nothing about immediately going to heaven. It talks about Jesus receiving his disciples upon his return, not their deaths.

Luke 23:40-43 is the story of the thieves on the cross beside Jesus. The problem is that Koine Greek (which the NT was written in) did not use punctuation marks, so the placement of the comma in English is a guess by biblical scholars. It reads in most translations as:

And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

However it can also be read as:

And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The latter changes it to future tense...i.e. after the resurrection and judgment. Regardless, both state paradise, not heaven, and paradise according to Revelation 21 is new earth. People will place the comma based on what belief they are trying to support.

Matthew 24:40-41 is the Parable of the Fig Tree...keyword = parable. It is not meant to be taken literally. Besides, Jesus lied when he said "Truly I say to you, this generation [of people] will not pass away until all these things take place." That generation did die and nothing happened.

Lastly, Revelation 20 says nothing about people in hell being judged. All it states is the dead...those in their graves or that died at sea. Besides, "hell" has been badly mistranslated and misrepresented. It is a play off the Greek hades and the Hebrew sheol. Both simply refer to the grave, not a place of torment and burning. The concept of hell as a place of burning and punishment is a creation of the Church, and was/is used as a control mechanism over people. The Church tries to scare people into submission.

Welcome to the 21st century!

 

[Unification]

There is not enough information supplied to make an informed decision. Could you let me know a few things first?: 1. Who is interpreting the situation? eg What is their belief? 2. What was the belief of the person who was murdered?, and 3. Is this scenario to be taken as a joke or seriously?

1. based off of your particular doctrine and beliefs as well as scripture interpretation.
2. No belief or anything for any "God."
3. Legitimate question.

 

[Akivah]

My knowledge of Judaism is limited to the Bible. I have little understanding of Judaism after the Apocrypha was written. I have wanted to read the Talmud but as yet, I haven't. And, I can read between the lines....you are suggesting that I should, right?

Are you a Jew that believes in reincarnation? (Please take my comments in a friendly manner. There is no sinister intention).

No, I'm not suggesting that you read the Talmud. It can't be simply 'read' anyhow. I'm saying that your statements about Judaism show a large ignorance of actual Judaism. Actually, stating that your knowledge of Judaism is limited to the bible explains your ignorance. I'm sure that the bible you're referring to is the Christian bible. It is very different from the Hebrew bible. Obviously a person's reference matter will shape their beliefs.

As far as reincarnation, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. It is supposed to happen when the future messiah arrives, but I'm much more interested in the other things that will happen in the future Messianic Age, like world peace.

 

[Norman]

The Bible answer is that good people (and most bad people) go to mankind's common grave. I believe what Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 says; "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward...Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

Norman: Hi rusra02, just a thought on Ecclesiastes 9. The Message of the Preacher. Ecclesiastes is “a Greek translation of the Hebrew Koheleth, a word meaning ‘one who convenes an assembly,’ sometimes rendered Preacher. The book of Ecclesiastes consists of reflections on some of the deepest problems of life, as they present themselves to the thoughtful observer. The epilogue (Eccl. 12:9–14) sets forth the main conclusions at which the writer has arrived. The author describes himself as ‘son of David, king in Jerusalem’ (1:1). “The book of Ecclesiastes seems permeated with a pessimistic flavor, but must be read in the light of one of its key phrases: ‘under the sun’ (1:9), meaning ‘from a worldly point of view.’ The term vanity also needs clarification, since as used in Ecclesiastes it means transitory, or fleeting. Thus the Preacher laments that as things appear from the point of view of the world, everything is temporary and soon gone—nothing is permanent. It is in this light also that the reader must understand 9:5 and 9:10, which declare that the dead ‘know not any thing,’ and there is no knowledge ‘in the grave.’ These should not be construed as theological pronouncements on the condition of the soul after death; rather, they are observations by the Preacher about how things appear to men on the earth ‘under the sun.’ The most spiritual part of the book appears in chapters 11 and 12, where it is concluded that the only activity of lasting and permanent value comes from obedience to God’s commandments, since all things will be examined in the judgment that God will render on man.” (Bible Dictionary, s.v. “Ecclesiastes.”)

Source:

www.lds.org

Happily, the Bible also promises "that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

 

[rusra02]

I think that Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 clearly presents the condition of the dead. You quoted Acts 24:15 where a resurrection is promised both the righteous and unrighteous. I agree that is the hope for the dead, not an immortal soul that leaves the body. As Ezekiel 18:4 affirms,"Look! All the souls —to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

 

[Norman]

I think that Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 clearly presents the condition of the dead. You quoted Acts 24:15 where a resurrection is promised both the righteous and unrighteous. I agree that is the hope for the dead, not an immortal soul that leaves the body. As Ezekiel 18:4 affirms,"Look! All the souls —to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Norman: Hi rusra02, just a note, I did not mention Acts 24:15, you did in your post.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes, I realize that Adam and Eve could still be living in the Garden if they had not sinned. However, I believe that if Satan got in once, he would have been able to get in again....and he would have tried to tempt someone else down the line.

Do you believe that God is all knowing? Do you not think that he detected a rebellious spirit in the devil long before he sinned? Do you think it was an accident that satan was appointed as a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden with access to the humans that God placed there? (Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17)

God has a purpose in connection with his entire creation, both for his heavenly and earthly children. The creation of humankind was really a test for the angels.....for one in particular. As God is a reader of hearts, not just actions, testing his children as to their loyalty and devotion to him is not unfair. Being free willed creatures, it was all up for grabs. God set the events in motion and allowed everything to naturally play out as he knew it would. God did not cause a single thing to happen, but allowed the free will of his children to dictate their actions, which in turn dictated his. He would "become" whatever he needed to be in any situation.

Allowing satan to do his thing at the beginning of man's creation was brilliant. If rebellion had happened down the track as you said, it would have resulted in a dilemma of mammoth proportions. God would have had half of his children perfect and the other half sinful. Some would have gained access to the tree of life and lived forever and others not. It would have been a worse nightmare than what we see now.

By allowing satan to do what he did, when he did it, all of God's children are tested as to their loyalty and obedience to their Creator. Those who fail the test forfeit the gift of life and those who pass, gain it everlastingly...in both realms.

The actions of these ones and the outcome can then set a precedent for all eternity to come. The case is proven beyond a shadow of doubt....God's rulership is superior and his sovereignty is unassailable. No rebel will ever be able to challenge God's rulership again.

Christians prefer to use the trinity as a concept to describe God. I do realize the actual term is not mentioned in the Bible. Jesus had to be very careful what he said. He couldn't just go around telling people he was God incarnated in human form. He would have been stoned to death....and he had to die a certain way.....on the cross as a sacrifice. However, in my mind there are enough scripture references to prove that Jesus is in fact God.

All of them are misinterpretations based on false assumptions about their subject matter. I can show you as many scriptures to the contrary...do you believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM". This is what you are to say to the Israelites, "I AM" has sent me to you"

As has been presented on these forums many times, this scripture is no proof of a trinity for the simple reason that YHWH does not mean "I Am" and never did.

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14

John 8:56-59 Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
You are not yet fifty years old, the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Read it again. Jesus is answering a question about his age. He is saying that he was in existence before Abraham was born.....and he was.

Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am"? Why only this once in John 8:58 does Christendom force Jesus to be claiming to be God when in all the other instances of "ego eimi" he is doing no such thing? There is NO connection between John 8:58 and Ex 3:14, nor is there a need to connect them unless you are trying to force a doctrine into the words.

The Jews knew that God had appeared to Moses. Jesus is clearly saying it was him that appeared.....that it was him who appeared because he is God.

It was angelic representatives who appeared to Moses. It may well have been the pre-human Jesus representing his Father as "The Word" or spokesman of God....but it was not God himself.
The closest God got to appearing to Moses was to be hidden in the crevice of a rock whilst Jehovah's glory passed by. (Ex 33:18-23)
John said that "no man has ever seen God" (John 1:18) do you think he was not telling the truth?

The Jews realized what he was saying and were going to kill him for mentioning it. No-one was allowed to say they were God.

It was the Jews trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him who said he claimed to be God. Jesus never said that.

John 10:31-36...."Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?” They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world." (NLT)

Look at Jesus' reply.....he said that since human leaders of the people are called "gods" he was not guilty of blasphemy for calling himself the son of God. In their own scriptures even angels were called "sons of God". It was a false charge.

Christians believe that God came many times in human form to visit people in the Bible, like to Abraham....to Jacob (the wrestling match) etc....Only God could say that he existed before Abraham...unless God could have sent a man like Adam. But Adam could not die as a savior for mankind due to his sin. Adam could not be reborn in human form, having been a human before. This would be reincarnation. Jesus knew Abraham well because he had spoken to him as God.

Just because the pre-human Jesus was in heaven with his Father, doesn't make him God. As the Word, he was "with God" "in the beginning". He existed before any other creation. (Col 1:15, 16)

When the JW came to my house, he explained that Jesus was a perfect man.....a man without sin....who took away the sins of the world. And this is a key doctrine of Kingdom Hall. If this is the truth, then no-one will make it to Heaven. No man, whether perfect or not can remove the sin for mankind. Only God could do this. And a human sacrifice is not acceptable to God as we see with Abraham, who was prevented from offering his son.

Don't tell me you never understood the pictorial nature of the request that God made to Abraham in connection with this event?
The son willingly allowed his father to offer him as a sacrifice, even though he could easily have resisted....Abraham did not hesitate to offer his "only son" when God required it. Abraham pictures Jehovah...Isaac pictures Jesus. It makes the sacrifice of the Christ so much more than just a Bible account when we add the emotion of this occasion. The unhesitatingly actions of the father and the willingness of the son to carry out the will of God, based on his promises for the future.

Hebrews 11:17-19...."It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead." (NLT)

The life of God's son was offered on the same basis...that God would raise him from the dead and fulfill all his promises through Jesus.

Only God could offer himself once for all and being a divine sacrifice, it works for past sin, present sin, and future sin. God used Abraham's attempted sacrifice as an illustration that man cannot be offered as a blood sacrifice but it pointed to another future sacrifice.....the one of Jesus, where it would be acceptable because God would be offering himself.

Please read Heb 7:27, 28.

Do you realise that you are suggesting that mere humans can kill God? Can God die? Please think about it.

You will say....but Christ was a perfect man. Yes, that is correct. But so were all the animals that were offered. They were perfect too...in every way. But they could only remove past sin. If God allowed human sacrifices, then they would only cover past sin. More humans would have to be sacrificed to cover future sin. The sacrifice of one man (not divine) could never cover all sin for all time.....this would be something only God could achieve.

That is not what the scriptures teach. (See Heb 7:27, 28 above) Christ was offered once for all time concerning sin. His life bought back what Adam lost....everlasting life in paradise on earth for all faithful ones.

From a mainstream Christian perspective, a JW is not saved for denying the divinity of JC. However, personally, I'm not sure how God would view it. You still believe in JC removing the sins of the world, which is required for salvation. It's a tricky one.

It is noteworthy to remind ourselves that God's people have never been mainstream. Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life....why do you think he said that? (Matt 7:13, 14)

Denying that Christ is God is not denying his divinity....it is denying that the son is in an equal position to the Father.
Putting anyone in place of the Father is blasphemy. (Ex 20:3) Those guilty of blasphemy are breaking the law of God.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

I strongly believe that the idea of people being good as a farce. Only Christ is truly good. Sadly so many think being good is enough to get into Heaven. But it is not our works that get us in. It is grace and salvation through Christ Jesus

 

[rusra02]

Norman: Hi rusra02, just a note, I did not mention Acts 24:15, you did in your post.

Yes, you're right. Sorry about that.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

A goodly deal of my research and papers were combining nursing with theology or rather spirituality. As a spiritual person, I find that I have no right to demand another to follow my path and what path a person walks is clearly their own. I did a lot of research about incorporating religion and spirituality into nursing practice, which is really quite prevalent now. A number of nursing paradigms and theories now include spirituality as an aspect of the holistic whole of the self. Where it pertains to strictly to theology, most of my papers have been about the commonalities of faith and the ubiquitous nature of God within most. Kind of like seeing God as God of the Fifth Mountain, a being that is attainable to every faith. Another passion of mine is mysticism and the commonalities of those throughout faiths as well. That was the subject of my dissertation. And thanks for asking!!

Thanks for sharing this.....interesting.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Then Allah takes a promise from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter hell, and who enters it will find it peace and cool, and who disobeys will be dragged to hell” (Sahih Hadith)

Thanks for sharing the Islamic view. However, I don't understand this sentence. There could be a grammatical error.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

No, I'm not suggesting that you read the Talmud. It can't be simply 'read' anyhow. I'm saying that your statements about Judaism show a large ignorance of actual Judaism. Actually, stating that your knowledge of Judaism is limited to the bible explains your ignorance. I'm sure that the bible you're referring to is the Christian bible. It is very different from the Hebrew bible. Obviously a person's reference matter will shape their beliefs.

As far as reincarnation, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. It is supposed to happen when the future messiah arrives, but I'm much more interested in the other things that will happen in the future Messianic Age, like world peace.

You seem to be confusing two completely different concepts. Reincarnation is not the same as resurrection from the dead. Reincarnation is a process of being reborn many times in different bodies of humans or animals depending on how good you were in the previous life. The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) mentions nothing about reincarnation.

World peace is something I look forward to as well.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thank you for your response. I can see that you spent a long time on your reply.

Do you believe that God is all knowing? Do you not think that he detected a rebellious spirit in the devil long before he sinned? Do you think it was an accident that satan was appointed as a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden with access to the humans that God placed there? (Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17)

Mainstream Christians do not believe that Satan was one of the guardian angels at the entrance to Eden. We believe that Satan had already been evicted from Heaven for sinning in his rebellion against God. He managed to get into Eden but was not a resident.

Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.”

That explains a lot. The NWT is only accepted by JWs as a valid translation (said politely).

It was angelic representatives who appeared to Moses. It may well have been the pre-human Jesus representing his Father as "The Word" or spokesman of God....but it was not God himself.

You don't seem to be sure who it was.

John said that "no man has ever seen God" (John 1:18) do you think he was not telling the truth?

That is true for many verses in the Bible. See "No-one has ever gone into Heaven except the one who came from Heaven.." (John 3:13) However, both Elijah and Enoch did. What it means when "no-one" is mentioned is that it is meaning "usually" and "in most cases". Clearly, both Isaiah (6:1-6) and Ezekiel (1:25-28) saw God directly, face to face.

It was the Jews trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him who said he claimed to be God. Jesus never said that.

Jesus did say it, and Christians interpret it the same way as the religious leaders back then. Jesus avoided being stoned because he was not supposed to die that way. He had to die a certain way for his sacrifice to be valid.

Just because the pre-human Jesus was in heaven with his Father, doesn't make him God. As the Word, he was "with God" "in the beginning". He existed before any other creation. (Col 1:15, 16)

Our spirits are with us....and they do make us who we are. Being with God in the beginning, as the word of God, does make him God. You are suggesting two Gods here. There is only one God.

Do you realise that you are suggesting that mere humans can kill God? Can God die? Please think about it.

Jesus only submitted to being killed to be a sacrifice. Of course he could have avoided death if he wanted to. The purpose of his coming was to die. Yes, humans killed God, because he allowed it....but because he was/ is God, death had no hold on him, and he just resurrected himself. God can do anything. Nothing is impossible with God. If God wants to die....and rise again, he can do it. Muslims use the same argument when they debate with Christians. They say that an eternal God cannot die. JWs and Muslims, however, are limiting God. He can do it if he wishes to.

That is not what the scriptures teach. (See Heb 7:27, 28 above) Christ was offered once for all time concerning sin. His life bought back what Adam lost....everlasting life in paradise on earth for all faithful ones.

Yes, I believe the words you mentioned in Hebrews. He could only do it because he was/ is God. If Christ was only a man, there is no hope for anyone.

Denying that Christ is God is not denying his divinity....it is denying that the son is in an equal position to the Father.

Only God is divine. If Christ is divine like you are suggesting, JWs are teaching a falsehood.....2 Gods. That's a sin.

Thank you for your time.