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Where does the Quran say Muhammad is the last Messenger of God?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Akhir means Last. He could have said
محمد أخر النبيين الي ابد الابدين
لا نبي بعده الي ابد الأبدين
Then It would have clearly meant, He is the last Prophet forever, there shall not be any Prophet after Him forever.
He could have said, this Quran is the Last Book, and there shall not be any Book revealed agter Quran from Allah for ever
(الي ابدالابدين)
لا كتاب بعد هذالكتاب الي ابد الأبدين
And from Now on whoever makes a claim to have a new Book, He is a Liar.
But He didn't say any of these.
Did not God know that someday Baha'u'llah claims to have new a Revelation?
Surely He know. So, He could have said it in a way, that when Baha'u'llah comes, He could not make any claim To a New Revelation.
The fact that Allah did not express it in a way to mean No Prophet Forever, it means He did not want to say, that islam is Final. But the Muslim Scholars wishfully interpeted it to mean Final.
also, All Knowledgeable Muslim Scholars agree that Khaatam means Ring now, and in those days, it was a Ring that could be used to stamp or seal.
Just refer to website of Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi, who is a Pro-Islamic Govenment in Iran, and is a well-known scholar.
In His website, He agrees that Khaatam means Ring, and a Ring used to seal, but he interprets it to mean Final. Not that the word Khaatam means Final.
Do you know diffence between Khaatim and Khaatam?
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The word can mean ring. But it means final as well.
Here an example of the word in verb form:
وَالْحَمْدُ للهِ الَّذِي مَنَّ عَلَيْنَا
wal-h'am-du lil-laahil-lad'ee man-na a'lay-naa
1. Praise belongs to God who was kind to us
بِمُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ
bimuh'am-madin-nabee-yihee s'al-laal-laahoo a'layhee wa aaalihee
2. through Muhammad, His Prophet (God bless him and his Household)
دُونَ ٱلْاُمَمِ ٱلْمَاضِيَةِ وَٱلْقُـرُونِ السَّالِفَةِ
doonal-umamil-maaz''eeati wal-quroonis-saalifah
3. to the exclusion of past communities and bygone generations,
بِقُدْرَتِهِ الَّتِي لَا تَعْجِزُ عَنْ شَيْءٍ وَ إِنْ عَظُمَ
biqud-ratihil-latee laa taa'-jizu a'n shay-iw-wa in a'z'um
4. displaying thereby His power, which nothing can render incapable though it be great,
وَ لا يَفُوتُهَا شَيءٌ وَإنْ لَطُفَ،
wa laa yafootuhaa shay-oo-wa il-lat'uf
5. and nothing can escape though it be subtle.
فَخَتَمَ بِنَاعَلَى جَمِيع مَنْ ذَرَأَ
fakhatama binaa a'laa jameei' man d'araa
6. He sealed through us all He created,
That is from the second Du'a in Sahifa Sajjadiya.
Here an example of the word in verb form:
وَالْحَمْدُ للهِ الَّذِي مَنَّ عَلَيْنَا
wal-h'am-du lil-laahil-lad'ee man-na a'lay-naa
1. Praise belongs to God who was kind to us
بِمُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ
bimuh'am-madin-nabee-yihee s'al-laal-laahoo a'layhee wa aaalihee
2. through Muhammad, His Prophet (God bless him and his Household)
دُونَ ٱلْاُمَمِ ٱلْمَاضِيَةِ وَٱلْقُـرُونِ السَّالِفَةِ
doonal-umamil-maaz''eeati wal-quroonis-saalifah
3. to the exclusion of past communities and bygone generations,
بِقُدْرَتِهِ الَّتِي لَا تَعْجِزُ عَنْ شَيْءٍ وَ إِنْ عَظُمَ
biqud-ratihil-latee laa taa'-jizu a'n shay-iw-wa in a'z'um
4. displaying thereby His power, which nothing can render incapable though it be great,
وَ لا يَفُوتُهَا شَيءٌ وَإنْ لَطُفَ،
wa laa yafootuhaa shay-oo-wa il-lat'uf
5. and nothing can escape though it be subtle.
فَخَتَمَ بِنَاعَلَى جَمِيع مَنْ ذَرَأَ
fakhatama binaa a'laa jameei' man d'araa
6. He sealed through us all He created,
That is from the second Du'a in Sahifa Sajjadiya.
This can be used to deny almost everything Quran says. To say God could've been clearer and said this way and that way, is dangerous territory.
The former just means the sealer/ender/finalizer, while the latter the seal/end/final.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
So, how would you translate this Hadith from Imam Ali:
ومن فرط في فقد فرط في الله ، ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين
بحار الأنوار - ط دارالاحیاء التراث - العلامة المجلسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I think the Muslim Ulama, assume Khaatam's meaning is related to Khatm.
Arabic is not like that.
Consider عالم and عالم and علم and علم
عالِم means scientist
عالَم means World
علم means knowledge
عَلَم means flag
All of them seem to be from the same root علم. But their meaning is totally different.
خاتم and ختم and خاتم are the same way.
Just because they seem to be from the same root, it doesn't mean their meaning is related to each other.
This is how Muslim scholars explain it how they interpreted Khaatam to mean final:
الخاتم من مادة "ختم" يطلق على ما يختم به آخر الرسائل أو الوثائق والكتب المهمة. ومن هنا وضعت كلمة "الخاتم" على ما يلبس في الاصابع، لأنَّ فص الخواتم كان ينقش عليه اسم أو رسم ويستعمل لختم الرسائل في الزمن السابق، وكان كل ختم لشخص معين. فكان يعتبر ختم الكتاب أو الوثيقة دليلا على اختتامهما وانتهائهما. فمعنى الخاتم هو الوسيلة التي تختم بها الرسائل والوثائق وليس ذلك الذي يُلبس في اليد وإن أطلق عليه ذلك فلأجل أنّ كونه يستعمل في ختم الرسائل والكتب.
الخاتمية - ويكيبيديا
The above is saying, Khaatam is from root "Khatm", and that is used to Stamp with it at the end of Letters, or important books and writings.
And also it means a Ring which in old times, they wore on their fingers, which had a engraving with their name or title on it, and they used to stamp and seal a letter with it.
Then the Muslim Scholars reasoned, and said, a Seal is placed at the end of a document, and thus the Seal of Prophets means Last Prophet.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Quran often asks mankind to think.
تعقلون
We think, by asking 'If' ... 'then'.
So, the question is, if Allah wanted to say final, then there are other words that exactly means that. Why He used Khaatam, which literally means a Signet Ring?
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to say Islam is not the Last Religion. It might be indeed. But just خاتم النبيين does not mean the final prophet.
Maybe, as Muslims say, the reason Islam is the last religion, is because Bible seems to be corrupted, so, there was a need for a new Book from God. But since Quran is in its original, no need for a new Book. I mean, that's probably true 85%.
But the word Khatam just does not mean last whatsoever. I am pretty sure about that. I mean there is 1% chance I could still be wrong. Maybe it does mean final. Just have not seen any evidence for it.
Feel free to show me some examples in Arab literature, news papers, poetry that they used the word Khaatam to mean Final. I mean, exactly form خاتم. Not خاتٍم or ختم، or any other similar words.
You don’t understand Arabic. It’s same word in verb form.
For it to mean ring it has to be absurd to mean final. Because parables are only used when non-parable meanings are not possible. In this case all God had to do was say else where in Quran there would be a new Nabi.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
فاعِل
خاتِم
But it is خاتَم
Like عالَم
So, it is incorrect to think of it as a word which is related to the root ختم. Similar to عالَم which its meaning has nothing to do with علم، eventhough it seems to be from same root.
In Arabic with just changing َ ِ meaning changes completely.
Like آخِر and آخِر
there are 2 items that observed in Islam on the matter.
1. hadith>>>.. the mahdi/caliph.......... is a long sought messiah firgure that is supposed to unveil a new model.... aka ..caliphate of the 12
****
The Promised Deliverer
Book 31, Number 4272:2.... ***I'jaz
Allah’s Challenge in the Quran to produce work similar to it
or a better bookThe concept of inimitability originates in the Qur'an. In five different verses, opponents are challenged to produce something like the Qur'an. The suggestion is that those who doubt the divine authorship of the Qur'an should try to disprove it by demonstrating that a human being could have created it:
And although I enjoy reading an learning, I am not muslim
but I not only see many similarities of torah/bible/quran. I also enjoy quran for the optimism as they are willing to challenge others to write a better book.
This are simple evidence to help anyone with having patience with the dialogue, rather than condemning muslims for what the rude have done using the quran for horrible atrocities.
You are speaking from ignorance. Arabic words have multiple meaning yes, but the verb forms are always related to the root meaning and nouns. It's like saying submitting and submission are unrelated in Arabic.
Anyways, I will lead you do more research into this.
You obviously don't know enough Arabic to comment on the language.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I agree, that خاتَم is made from the verb root ختم.
In the same way that عالَم is made from علم.
But عالَم means ما يعلم به that 'which' by it knowledge is known. It is for this reason, the World in Arabic is named عالم، because the World is what Knowledge is known by it.
Likewise خاتَم means ما يختم به, that 'which' with it is closed, sealed, or ended.
What is the point here, is when you make a word in the form of فاعَل، the meaning is a reference to a "thing" شي, not a person.
But if make a word based on فاعِل، now it refers to a Person.
So, if you want to translate خاتَم النبيين you can say it means, Muhammad is a "thing" by which Prophets are closed or sealed.
But this is wrong usage of a word, for Muhammad is not a thing. He is a Person.
Therefore the only way, to understand this Term, is, to consider it as a Similitude.
That means the Prophet is Likened to a خاتم. What was a خاتم in those days?
It was a Signet Ring. Thus, Muhammad is likened to the Signet Ring of Prophets.
And a Hadith, from Imam Ali confirms it. The one, I asked you to translate it, but you ignored my request, for a reason you know....
You don't know what you are talking about. A person is a thing as well. There are verbs and nouns that only refer to persons and can't apply to non-person things, but you are going all over the place, and you are speaking frankly non-sense.
Ring of the Prophets as a person does not make sense either. As for the hadith, we have plenty of hadiths say there is no Prophet after Mohammad (s). So why would I care about what an outlier hadith says vs the majority?
Ring of the Prophets as a person does not make sense either. As for the hadith, we have plenty of hadiths say there is no Prophet after Mohammad (s). So why would I care about what an outlier hadith says vs the majority?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Do you remember Allah said, He speaks in similitude, and they say, what does Allah mean by this similitude? Allah misleads many by Similitudes!
The similitude of the Prophet, is a Signet Ring, which all Prophets must have in order to get the Power of Prophecy.
It is an allusion to the Story of Khatam of Sulaiman (خاتم سليمان).
Sulaiman had a Signet Ring, which according to Religious Traditions had enabled Him to be a Prophet. Ali in the Hadith says, No Prophet is enabled to be a prophet unless He get the Ring from Muhammad. For this reason He is called Signet Ring of Prophets. Mind you In Hadithes, it is said Mahdi comes with the Ring of Sulaiman, which is an allusion that He is a Prophet.
But some say, what does Allah mean by Signet Ring of Prophets. He misguides many by this, because the Ulama, thought it mean the Final Prophet. They did not understand what Allah means.
As regards to the Hadithes that He said
لا نبي بعدي..
this is related to His own time, and Successorship. Meaning, when Muhammad passes away, there won't be any Prophet who becomes His successor, as the Revelation of the Quran was completed and there was no need for any thing to be written after that (لا كتاب بعد هذا).
Again, the Ulama read more than what Muhammad said. Muhammad did not say, No Prophet after me forever
(لا نبي بعدي الي ابد).
But the Ulama interpreted it as if He said No Prophets forever.
And yes, in the Quran it does say there will be Prophets:
"And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged." (39:69)
The earth Shall shine with Light of Lord, is an allusion to a knew Guidance . The Book is set up, is an allusion to a new Revelation, a new Word from God, and the Prophets signifies that more than one Prophet comes around the same time (Mahdi and Christ), and Martyrs (witnesses) is an allusion that many will die in the path of God in the new Revelation, and Judgement of God, is toward those who disbelieve in this new Revelation....
وَأَشْرَقَتِ ٱلْأَرْضُ بِنُورِ رَبِّهَا وَوُضِعَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبُ وَجِا۟ىٓءَ بِٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ وَٱلشُّهَدَآءِ وَقُضِىَ بَيْنَهُم بِٱلْحَقِّ وَهُمْ لَا يُظْلَمُونَ
And the reason that Quran only alludes in a language that can be denied is for the same reason that Quran only alluded to the 12 Imams, and they were denied. It is for the same reason Muhammad was only alluded in the Bible. So, it may be a test, for those who claim, we believe.
Allah (swt) would've said "Khatamal Mursaleen" if he meant signet ring in the way you phrase it, because Imams (a) would need that power too and they are sent. The sent ones (mursaleen) include Prophets, Messengers, holy chosen ladies like Fatima, and Imams. If it had the ring of Sulaiman (a) meaning, it would state that instead.
But the fact he mentioned he is a Messenger of God and seal of the Prophets, means, it's a particular thing to Prophets and not an end to Messengers. This is because there will be a Messenger in end times and Imams becoming Messengers depends all in the case if it's needed. It was needed so they too became Messengers.
But the fact he mentioned he is a Messenger of God and seal of the Prophets, means, it's a particular thing to Prophets and not an end to Messengers. This is because there will be a Messenger in end times and Imams becoming Messengers depends all in the case if it's needed. It was needed so they too became Messengers.