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Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?

blueman

blueman

God's Warrior
dogsgod said:
You're a lot more honest than the pretenders on this board. You accept on theological grounds which is a little different than those here that pretend to be historians. I wasn't directing my rant at you.
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No worries. i like the way you raise some thought provoking questions within the thread. Aside from my faith, I want to explore the intellectual side of the argument and try to present some rationale for people to think about. It is by no means a blind faith as some want to assume.
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
fallingblood said:
What you are describing is nothing more than faith. That does not qualify as factual truth, and really is irrelevant in any credible discussion on the subject in my opinion.
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Well then, if that is true, nobody (including you) has said anything in this discussion that qualifies as factual truth, it is all based on faith. However, I have a claim you apparently do not. I have an ongoing relationship with a Heavenly Father who enlightens me from time to time and as far as I'm concerned that puts me one up on you as a far more viable source of dependable information. If anything it is you who is putting all his eggs in a basket called "faith"
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Evandr said:
Well then, if that is true, nobody (including you) has said anything in this discussion that qualifies as factual truth, it is all based on faith. However, I have a claim you apparently do not. I have an ongoing relationship with a Heavenly Father who enlightens me from time to time and as far as I'm concerned that puts me one up on you as a far more viable source of dependable information. If anything it is you who is putting all his eggs in a basket called "faith"
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Yes, there are loads of theists who think that their god has the biggest penis.
 
Zadok

Zadok

Zadok
ThereIsNoSpoon said:
Well i guess Jesus was just a person that was killed some 2000 years ago. Thats it.
There is no more or less sacrifice in his death then in the death of any other person.
The only difference is that some billion people think that it was something special.
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That alone makes it something special - Dah. There is something else - but if someone wants to stand in the sun at noon day and declair it night - what can anyone say or do to convince them otherwise?

Zadok
 
logician

logician

Well-Known Member
Certainly the RESSURECTION of the supposed Jesus is an impossibliity in scientific terms, so it is on the same order of sacrifice of any demi-god - a mythical one only.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
RE: 'Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?'

When one makes a sacrifice for another doesn't one give up something at one's personal expense?

Jesus of his own free will was sent by God to us.
Jesus gave up his perfect existence in the heavens in order to be born as a perfect human on earth. Since Jesus would have been a human with healthy perfection of mind and body as Adam originally had before sinning, then the value of Jesus ransom sacrifice could free us from sin and death. We can not resurrect oneself or another so we need someone that can do that for us. Jesus dying faithful could give up the value of his perfect human life as a ransom to balance the scales of justice and undo what Adam did to us. Jesus can and will resurrect during his 1000-year reign over earth when all things will be made new as Rev 21vs 3-5 says.- Acts 24v15
 
Danny Heim

Danny Heim

Active Member
jmvizanko said:
Considering that many people throughout history have undergone much worse and longer forms of torture and killing than did Jesus, what makes his death such a sacrifice? If god is all knowing and all powerful, then he set up the universe in such a way that he knew many people would undergo much more pain than the very finite amount of pain that his "son" had to undergo. So what is the big deal with Jesus going through a bit of pain and then dying, only to be whisked away to rule the universe forever?
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It is a big deal because it is believed to be a big deal, and that makes it a big deal.
 
Danny Heim

Danny Heim

Active Member
Evandr said:
Well then, if that is true, nobody (including you) has said anything in this discussion that qualifies as factual truth, it is all based on faith. However, I have a claim you apparently do not. I have an ongoing relationship with a Heavenly Father who enlightens me from time to time and as far as I'm concerned that puts me one up on you as a far more viable source of dependable information. If anything it is you who is putting all his eggs in a basket called "faith"
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Hey! I got one of those kind of guys too, what a coincidence?? Mine’s called the Universe, what’s yours called? Is it that Jehovah guy? Wow, that’s cool.
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Danny Heim said:
Hey! I got one of those kind of guys too, what a coincidence?? Mine’s called the Universe, what’s yours called? Is it that Jehovah guy? Wow, that’s cool.
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It is obvious that where I would study at the feet of Michelangelo you would be content to learn what you can by studying his works of art. A benefit can be had from both but trying to learn from observing the destination cannot prepare you to forge similar paths of your own. At some point you have to stop looking and start doing. If given sufficient time and effort one may gain extraordinary talent by emulating what they see others have done but, when it comes to achieving exaltation in the kingdoms of God, one must be trained by the creator not simply awed by the creations.
 
Danny Heim

Danny Heim

Active Member
Evandr said:
It is obvious that where I would study at the feet of Michelangelo you would be content to learn what you can by studying his works of art. A benefit can be had from both but trying to learn from observing the destination cannot prepare you to forge similar paths of your own. At some point you have to stop looking and start doing. If given sufficient time and effort one may gain extraordinary talent by emulating what they see others have done but, when it comes to achieving exaltation in the kingdoms of God, one must be trained by the creator not simply awed by the creations.
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I couldn't resist my sarcasm, sorry for that. I can relate to what you are saying. It actually does come to me via the universe, which is my God. It comes to you by the God of the Bible, no matter, as long as we get it. I really am sorry for my lash out, because I want to be able to communicate with Christians, this is a new thing for me to try. Before of late, I had been very anti-Christian. But I am seeing that it will not get us anywhere to knock each other. We need each other like we never have before, please excuse my slip. But I would also ask that you consider that there are many ways to be taught spiritual life, it happens all the time. Look at how many religions are discussed on this site alone. And in each one of them, I am quite sure the presence of their God is felt, that is very telling.
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Danny Heim said:
I couldn't resist my sarcasm, sorry for that. I can relate to what you are saying. It actually does come to me via the universe, which is my God. It comes to you by the God of the Bible, no matter, as long as we get it. I really am sorry for my lash out, because I want to be able to communicate with Christians, this is a new thing for me to try. Before of late, I had been very anti-Christian. But I am seeing that it will not get us anywhere to knock each other. We need each other like we never have before, please excuse my slip. But I would also ask that you consider that there are many ways to be taught spiritual life, it happens all the time. Look at how many religions are discussed on this site alone. And in each one of them, I am quite sure the presence of their God is felt, that is very telling.
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I believe you are correct, God does not abandon his children simply because they are not getting everything right, if that were true than God would only acknowledge about...well... a very small number of the world's population including, I believe, in my own religion. If there is a blessing attached to a commandment then that blessing is meted out to one who keeps that commandment regardless of their religious standing or what religion they belong to. A house can have many members who contribute to the greatness of the house yet it can still be true in that house that only those who meet certain requirements will one day be called up and anointed to head houses of their own. That is not to say that the others will not make great strides in their own spiritual journey, learning and gaining much, but for me there is only one "best" way to do things and that is what I promote because I believe that, when it comes to matters of God and His commandments, only the best is worth striving for.

Your little quip was reminiscent of the comical antics of Jack Benny (or was it Milton Berl?). :rolleyes:
 
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Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
logician said:
If the supposed Jesus did this by free will, then it is possible he could have decided not to, meaning the supposed god left everything to chance. Not good planning in my book.
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Grasping at straws are we? Nothing was left to chance, Christ did not rise to the level of being in the Godhead by being untrue to His word and Elohim is no dummy.
 
Zadok

Zadok

Zadok
logician said:
If the supposed Jesus did this by free will, then it is possible he could have decided not to, meaning the supposed god left everything to chance. Not good planning in my book.
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I find it most interesting that you believe any exercise in individual freedom is not good planning in your book. In a way I agree - anyone or any force or any idea that put you up to that – was really stupid.

Zadok
 
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