Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?

[McBell]

Your opinions tend to be anecdotal and rely very little on any in depth research you perform on your own.

So sorry that my special glasses research did not align with yours.

There's nothing sad about it. I would beg to argue that you're severly in denial.

You can beg all you like.
Opinions differ.
It is no big thing.
And the fact is that you are the one in denial.
Serious denial.
But only you can do anything about it.

 

[blueman]

God is all knowing correct?
He knew everything that was going to happen before he even started creating the Earth, right?
There is nothing that god does not know, right?

If this is true, then god knew before he even started that his 613 rules could not be followed and yet he set up those 613 rules anyway.
What part of this is "righteous"?

Mankind, who God gave free will to, was commanded to obey God righteous standard and continually rejected it. Through His grace, mercy and yes, righteousness, His final covenant was reflected in the person of Jesus Christ. God's desire is for us to accept, worship and obey Him willingly. We are made righteous not for ourworks, but through Jesus Christ.

 

[McBell]

How is that the only conclusion you come too? A miracle is the most least likely scenario for any given situation. If it wasn't it wouldn't be called a miracle. The gospels are not contemporary to the events they narrate, you have no one writing the gospels who was an eyewitness. And if you read the gospels they don't agree with each other on the aspects of the resurrection. For instance, who went to the tomb on the third day? was it mary magdalen by herself or with other women? Well, depending on which gospel you read, you'll get a different account. And if it was with other women, how many were there and what were there names? Depends which gospel you read. Was the stone rolled away before or after the women got there, depends what gospel you read. So, what we have are a collection of stories from non eyewitnesses about stories. They were stories that were in circulation for decade after decade before they were written down in greek, but jesus and his followers didn't speak greek, they spoke aramaic. So, there is another obstacle, a language barrier. And the period of time these stories were written was a very superstitious era. So, I reiterate the resurrection is not a historical fact, it is a theologic assumption.

now now.
no use confusing him with real facts.

 

[McBell]

Mankind, who God gave free will to, was commanded to obey God righteous standard and continually rejected it. Through His grace, mercy and yes, righteousness, His final covenant was reflected in the person of Jesus Christ. God's desire is for us to accept, worship and obey Him willingly. We are made righteous not for ourworks, but through Jesus Christ.

Now you are either clarifying what you meant to say and failed or you are moving the goal posts.

 

[blueman]

Now you are either clarifying what you meant to say and failed or you are moving the goal posts.

I'm not moving anything. I believe I have articulated the distinction of Jesus's sacrifice as being unique and without peers.

 

[blueman]

So sorry that my special glasses research did not align with yours.


You can beg all you like.
Opinions differ.
It is no big thing.
And the fact is that you are the one in denial.
Serious denial.
But only you can do anything about it.

No, I was in denial and I did do something about it years ago. I accepted Christ in my life.

 

[Peacewise]

What is God's purpose?

Is it possible that even our failure serve His purpose? I'm mean if he knew we would fail then surely He has the ability to make our failure his success.

I've not yet found what God's ultimate purpose with humanity is, at a guess though I'd reckon he wants some children and wants to be a part of us growing up, for we are in his image and that's what most parents what too. Procreation seems to be his purpose.

Do we learn from failure, certainly we do, or from success. Seems to me that either way we grow and learn, which fits my guess as to what God's purpose is.

So how much growing up can we do? Perhaps some few can follow all these 613 laws and be without sin and hence perhaps be that ultimate human that perhaps is the kind of human that God really would like to talk to.

That number 613 laws, kinda reminds me of reverse pyramid training methods (from fitness workouts), whereby the trainee lifts the heaviest weight in the first set, then lightens the weight in following sets. For example start at 613 laws, then drop back to the most important 10 laws and makes sure you get those right, and then drops it back again, for example to just 1 law to really hammer home the most important law. Just a thought anyways.

 

[McBell]

I'm not moving anything. I believe I have articulated the distinction of Jesus's sacrifice as being unique and without peers.

You seem to be over impressed with your own beliefs.

 

[McBell]

No, I was in denial and I did do something about it years ago. I accepted Christ in my life.

Good for you!!
But I have already outgrown the need myself.
I realize that you will not be able to understand that.
But perhaps in time you might.

 

[McBell]

What is God's purpose?

Is it possible that even our failure serve His purpose? I'm mean if he knew we would fail then surely He has the ability to make our failure his success.

I've not yet found what God's ultimate purpose with humanity is, at a guess though I'd reckon he wants some children and wants to be a part of us growing up, for we are in his image and that's what most parents what too. Procreation seems to be his purpose.

Do we learn from failure, certainly we do, or from success. Seems to me that either way we grow and learn, which fits my guess as to what God's purpose is.

So how much growing up can we do? Perhaps some few can follow all these 613 laws and be without sin and hence perhaps be that ultimate human that perhaps is the kind of human that God really would like to talk to.

That number 613 laws, kinda reminds me of reverse pyramid training methods (from fitness workouts), whereby the trainee lifts the heaviest weight in the first set, then lightens the weight in following sets. For example start at 613 laws, then drop back to the most important 10 laws and makes sure you get those right, and then drops it back again, for example to just 1 law to really hammer home the most important law. Just a thought anyways.

Never thought of an all powerful, all knowing, absolutely just and loving deity working a pyramid scheme...

 

[Tristesse]

I'm not moving anything. I believe I have articulated the distinction of Jesus's sacrifice as being unique and without peers.

Are you going to acknowledge my previous post? Or are you going to ignore the point I made?

 

[blueman]

Are you going to acknowledge my previous post? Or are you going to ignore the point I made?

First off, the miracle of the resurrection is the only rationale conclusion for the origin of the Christian church. Even renowned skeptics are beginning to acknowledge this issue. Secondly, the gospels and Pauline Epistles were written by the authors an witnesses or one who had access to witnesses (in John Mark And Luke's case) and were written within one generation after the cruxifiction of Jesus, unlike the Gnostic Gospels. Do your research and stop making the same tired arguments that have already been proven inaccurate years ago.

 

[blueman]

First off, the miracle of the resurrection is the only rationale conclusion for the origin of the Christian church. Even renowned skeptics are beginning to acknowledge this issue. Secondly, the gospels and Pauline Epistles were written by the authors an witnesses or one who had access to witnesses (in John Mark And Luke's case) and were written within one generation after the cruxifiction of Jesus, unlike the Gnostic Gospels. Do your research and stop making the same tired arguments that have already been proven inaccurate years ago.

Regarding the diversion in the Gospels around the story, you have to understand the writers did not sit around a table collaborating with each other. They wrote their narrative at different times and when you think about it, where are there any material inaccuracies regarding the doctrine of Jesus's life, death and resurrection? The diversion is not material to the key events. The fact that the Gospel writers referenced women finding the tomb empty as a witness should tell you something if you know how women were viewed and treated in the 1st century. Do your research.

 

[Tristesse]

First off, the miracle of the resurrection is the only rationale conclusion for the origin of the Christian church. Even renowned skeptics are beginning to acknowledge this issue. Secondly, the gospels and Pauline Epistles were written by the authors an witnesses or one who had access to witnesses (in John Mark And Luke's case) and were written within one generation after the cruxifiction of Jesus, unlike the Gnostic Gospels. Do your research and stop making the same tired arguments that have already been proven inaccurate years ago.

I don't think I've ever heard the words rational and resurrection in the same sentence before. But be that as it may, The origin of the christian church has no bearing on whether or not jesus was resurrected historically. Like I said it's theological, not historical. I would like to meet a skeptic who is seriously beginning to acknowledge the resurrection as valid, because I would be doubtful of his skepticism. Your second point, is already addressed in my earlier statement. No one who wrote the gospels is an eyewitness, they may have had access to eyewitnesses accounts decades later, but no one writing the gospels was an eyewitness. And they don't even claim to be eyewitnesses. if they were interviewing the eyewitnesses, well, the eyewitnesses to his resurrection would have most likely spoken aramaic, But the writers of the gospels wrote and spoke in greek. I've done my research and they have not been proven inaccurate, you have yet to show where I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[Tristesse]

Regarding the diversion in the Gospels around the story, you have to understand the writers did not sit around a table collaborating with each other. They wrote their narrative at different times and when you think about it, where are there any material inaccuracies regarding the doctrine of Jesus's life, death and resurrection? The diversion is not material to the key events. The fact that the Gospel writers referenced women finding the tomb empty as a witness should tell you something if you know how women were viewed and treated in the 1st century. Do your research.

Yes, because these were stories that were in circulation for decades. I realize that the writers did not collaborate with each other, because well, there are discrepancies in there writings. But, you can not verify a miracle historically, you can believe it or have "faith" that it happened, but historically you can not determine that that's what happened.

 

[blueman]

:thud:

Yes, because these were stories that were in circulation for decades. I realize that the writers did not collaborate with each other, because well, there are discrepancies in there writings. But, you can not verify a miracle historically, you can believe it or have "faith" that it happened, but historically you can not determine that that's what happened.

Why not? Do you believe the story of Alexander The Great to be historically factual?

 

[blueman]

Yes, because these were stories that were in circulation for decades. I realize that the writers did not collaborate with each other, because well, there are discrepancies in there writings. But, you can not verify a miracle historically, you can believe it or have "faith" that it happened, but historically you can not determine that that's what happened.

The Pauline Epistles were in circulation over a period of 10-20 years after Jesus's cruxifiction. The NT Gospels within 30-40 years, but the oral communication even earlier. The writings are well within the generation of people who witness said events. This narrative that these writings occurred hundreds of year later (like the Gnostic books) is so far in the minority thought process, even with many skeptics.

 

[Tristesse]

:thud:
Why not? Do you believe the story of Alexander The Great to be historically factual?

Yes, I do. But if you told me that alexander the great was resurrected, I would not believe that claim to be historically accurate. Do you believe that osiris was raised from the dead? If not, why not?

 

[Tristesse]

The Pauline Epistles were in circulation over a period of 10-20 years after Jesus's cruxifiction. The NT Gospels within 30-40 years, but the oral communication even earlier. The writings are well within the generation of people who witness said events. This narrative that these writings occurred hundreds of year later (like the Gnostic books) is so far in the minority thought process, even with many skeptics.

When did I say hundreds of years? I said decades. I agree with you that it's within the parameters for eyewitness accounts. You're not listening to what I'm saying, if anybody in history, even if it was written by eyewitnesses, reported that so and so was raised from the dead, that cannot be a historically valid claim. Because there are people you can visit today who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Do you consider there testimony reliable? I don't. There is a guy in brazil I believe, who is claiming to be jesus reincarnated, he has 100's of thousands of followers. Things of a miraculous nature, are least probable.

 

[McBell]

I believe I have articulated the distinction of Jesus's sacrifice as being unique and without peers.

Really?
How exactly is Jesus' sacrifice unique?
I mean, he isn't the only one resurrected in the Bible.
Hells bells, he isn't even the first one resurrected in the Bible:

The widow's son by Elijah (1 Kings 17:21-24)

The Shunammite's son by Elisha (2 Kings 4:32-35)

A man whose body had been placed in Elisha's tomb (2 Kings 13:20-21)

Lazarus by Jesus Christ (John 11:43-44)

The widow’s son by Jesus. (Luke 7:12-17)

A number of people at the moment of the death of Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:51-53)

The daughter of Jairus by Jesus (Mark 5:39-40)

Eutychus raised back to life through Paul after he fell out of a third-floor window (Acts 20:9-12)

Tabitha by Peter (Acts 9:36-43)
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