Where is God?

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

We are at fault.

Why would "I" be at fault my friend?

The point is that we're looking for God in the wrong places.

Where is he then?

Part of the understanding we have of God is that God does not force God's Self upon us. God has acted -- we must respond. If we don't respond, in what way does that make God ineffective?

God has acted? When? 2000 years ago. I was not existend at that time. Sorry.

 

[blueman]

Supposedly he has created the universe, supposedly he has sent prophets and messengers to us, supposedly he communicates every now and then with people and supposedly he does his works daily.

A legitimate question would be: where is (the abrahmitic?) god?

God has left many clues for us that when taken in totality, provide a sound rationale for His existence. They include, but are not limited to:

(1) The vastness of the universe
(2) The natural order
(3) Moral standard
(4) Love
(5) Beauty
(6) Mind will and emotions (our psyche and consciense)
(7) The depth of information in DNA cells

This could not evolve or be supported by some random, set of events with no purpose in mind. God is all around us and He speaks to us today through the Word in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Cobblestones]

This could not evolve or be supported by some random, set of events with no purpose in mind.

Why not?

 

[blueman]

Why not?

Think about it. How plausible is it and what are odds to support a random, meaningless existence in light of these clues???

 

[sojourner]

In what way does reading the Bible contribute to any sort of communication with god?

I didn't say it did.

It seems to me that you think that God is trying to communicate from some radio frequency and we are doing everything we can to destroy all the radio receivers.

You "seem" wrong.

My question is what does it matter if God is somewhere out there failing to communicate to us rather than standing in the room next to us communicating in a way that we can both understand and not mistake for something else?

My point is that we cheapen God by the way we treat the very words we use to understand and communicate "God." And that is our fault. Your last statement is a wonderful example of how we use language to cheapen God. Thanks for providing it!

 

[sojourner]

Whose understanding? That's simply your hypothesis which has yet to produce any supporting evidence.

No, it's more than "my hyposthesis." It's the understanding that millions of believers share.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks Cobbles. You're spot-on (although I was thinking more in terms of God being a fisherman casting out individual lines and rewarding those who actually took the bait).

Salvation is not a rewards-based proposition. If you spent more time actually studying and immersing yourself in the theology, instead of standing at a safe distance, throwing rocks, you might find you don't need to waste your energy throwing rocks, and could be a better steward of that energy.

What I find so profoundly troubling in Soj's comments is the mixture of conjecture and certitude:

You're disturbed precisely because of my comment above. You don't get what I'm saying, so you ridicule. Make no mistake. There is no "conjecture." "Believe" does not = "conjecture."

Once again, you ridicule what pleases you. You demand some sort of scientific "proof," believing science to hold all the answers. Yet, even science works on some beliefs. There are a whole lot of scientific "working hypotheses" out there -- stuff we think might be there, or stuff that works in a certain way, but we just can't prove. You seem comfortable with science, even when science does that; yet you ridicule theology when theology does the same thing.

It's all our fault and yet we are the lower or lesser intelligence and yet we have the power to thwart the creator. It just seems so implausible to me that an all-powerful deity could be so ineffectual and incompetent.

Just because God is all powerful does not mean that God forces God's Self on us.

 

[sojourner]

I find it strange to say that.
As I mentioned already God supposedly has done (still does) many things. Yet interestingly while for example a whole city should have been able to tell you about him some millenia ago, you don't see any manifestations of him or his acts nowadays.
Aint that somewhat "interesting".

Thousands of people killed, cities and nations destroyed, planets created, miracles around the corner, healing blind people.....
and nowadays? "Rien"

God retreats into our background as we do our best to drown him out with a glut of language and noise.

 

[sojourner]

Why would "I" be at fault my friend?

Why wouldn't you be? Aren't you part of the human race?

Where is he then?

Beside us, below us, above us, before us, behind us, within us, and in between us.

God has acted? When? 2000 years ago. I was not existend at that time. Sorry.

Time means nothing. An act of God 2000 years ago is an act of God right now.

 

[Dunemeister]

I find it strange to say that.
As I mentioned already God supposedly has done (still does) many things. Yet interestingly while for example a whole city should have been able to tell you about him some millenia ago, you don't see any manifestations of him or his acts nowadays.
Aint that somewhat "interesting".

Thousands of people killed, cities and nations destroyed, planets created, miracles around the corner, healing blind people.....
and nowadays? "Rien"

Not at all. If it's miracles you want, these are a dime a dozen. It's not as if we are absent reports of these. If by "manifestation" you mean something like a prophet or an incarnation like Jesus, the Christian claim is that Christ is God's final word so to speak. After him, we can expect no more prophets. Meantime, we have God's written word and his active presence (Holy Spirit) in the world.

 

[Cobblestones]

Think about it. How plausible is it and what are odds to support a random, meaningless existence in light of these clues???

In a vast universe like ours? Entirely plausible and in fact likely.

How plausible is it and what are the odds to support the notion of a god who could create all this stuff but is completely incapable of communicating with people that he has created?

 

[Cobblestones]

No, it's more than "my hyposthesis." It's the understanding that millions of believers share.

"understanding" only comes from verifiable, objective input and the fact that the people about whom you speak are "believers" means that none of them really knows. You are talking through your hat sir.

 

[Cobblestones]

I'm glad I provided such a level of entertainment for you. I had a cat that was eminently entertained by a springy doorstop, too. What's your point?

Perhaps that your argument could also be made by a springy doorstop?

 

[Cobblestones]

In what way does reading the Bible contribute to any sort of communication with god?

I didn't say it did.

You said:

We live in a world where people throw Bibles in the trash along with soiled diapers and other filth.

If reading the Bible doesn't contribute to any sort of communication with god then why should you care if it gets thrown out with the rest of the trash?

 

[Cobblestones]

Salvation is not a rewards-based proposition. If you spent more time actually studying and immersing yourself in the theology, instead of standing at a safe distance, throwing rocks, you might find you don't need to waste your energy throwing rocks, and could be a better steward of that energy.

You're the one who said:

...we're looking for God in the wrong places...

Why the hell should we have to look? You make God sound like a nincompoop. It's like a father who travels all the time and has never seen his child, although he wrote him a letter before the child was born, and the mother blaming the child for not knowing its father because even though he has called every hotel he can think of he is "looking in the wrong places." One would think that an all-powerful deity would be at least as clever as human beings. Yours simply plays hide-and-seek with eternity hanging in the balance.

I prefer things that are real. Your god does not qualify.

 

[Cobblestones]

Time means nothing. An act of God 2000 years ago is an act of God right now.

:::Twilight Zone Theme Playing:::

 

[sojourner]

"understanding" only comes from verifiable, objective input and the fact that the people about whom you speak are "believers" means that none of them really knows. You are talking through your hat sir.

That's not the only vehicle for understanding. Who's talking through whose hat?

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps that your argument could also be made by a springy doorstop?

I doubt that was your point, since the whole springy doorstop illustration wasn't posted until after your cheap shot. Care to try again?

 

[sojourner]

You said:If reading the Bible doesn't contribute to any sort of communication with god then why should you care if it gets thrown out with the rest of the trash?

First, the Bible contains the printed name of God. That alone is enough to make it holy. Second, "communication" is not the reason the Bible is valuable, either as a document or a sacred object. The point wasn't the way we treat the Bible. The point was how we treat language, especially sacred language. Understand, now?

 

[sojourner]

Why the hell should we have to look?

Why the hell should you throw a filthy blanket over God to hide God?

You make God sound like a nincompoop.

You're projecting. I'm not making God sound like a nincompoop. I'm holding humanity accountable for losing track of God.

It's like a father who travels all the time and has never seen his child, although he wrote him a letter before the child was born, and the mother blaming the child for not knowing its father because even though he has called every hotel he can think of he is "looking in the wrong places."

No, it isn't. It's a whole lot more like a snotty, entitled, know-it-all teenager who storms out of the house because he doesn't want daddy "meddling in my life." Daddy goes the extra mile to retrieve Sonny Boy, even though he's a complete jerk, utilizing all the broadcast and communications techniques available to the culture, and Brat does everything he can do to avoid receiving the communications. Patiently, daddy waits at the door with the porch light on, trusting that, one day, his son will return.

One would think that an all-powerful deity would be at least as clever as human beings.

But not nearly so entitled, bratty and pushy.

Yours simply plays hide-and-seek with eternity hanging in the balance.

Humanity's doing the running and hiding. God doesn't play games. Eternity doesn't "hang in the balance" for a God who has already reconciled humanity to God's Self.

I prefer things that are real. Your god does not qualify.

So does God. Do you qualify?