Where is the sacrifice?

[viole]

So according to your perspective, there was no sacrifice?

I don't think there was any sacrifice. Independently from perspectives.

The best you can say is that Christ sacrificed His Passover weekend for your sins.

Unless we consider "sacrifice" spending the weekend for something which we find suboptimal.

Ciao

- viole

 

[dybmh]

So, as a finite human, do you think that was awesome?

Ciao

- viole

That? What 'that'? What precisely are you asking about?

 

[Jimmy]

He did. He permanently lost his life. He did regain it along with a whole new world. A whole new life. He didn’t remember losing his life so yeah he permanently lost it. There’s always a deeper meaning and a deeper reality regarding things in the Bible imo

 

[Kfox]

Jesus sacrificed his life on earth for people, because he used it for the benefit for others, not for himself. After he was murdered, God raised him from death and so he got life with God after his death.

How is this different than what I said?

 

[Kfox]

He did. He permanently lost his life. He did regain it along with a whole new world. A whole new life. He didn’t remember losing his life so yeah he permanently lost it. There’s always a deeper meaning and a deeper reality regarding things in the Bible imo

Didn't Jesus already exist in Heaven prior to being born by Mary?

 

[1213]

The problem with that is that Jesus knew it before "sacrificing" Himself. At least, according to the NT.

It would be like me paying a million to redeem the debts of a friend, knowing that I will magically get my million back on Monday.

I think it is easier said than done. Many are not willing to give up even a small pleasure for to have eternal life. But, I think this is not very important matter. I think Jesus made a great sacrifice, by using his life on earth for us. If you think it was nothing, you are free to have that opinion.

 

[Brian2]

Christians believe God sent his son Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, but 3 days later he was resurrected. Where is the sacrifice in that? Sacrifice is something you lose permanently; to lose your life only to regain it later does not seem to be a sacrifice IMO; am I missing something?

I don't think the word "sacrifice" should be seen that way.
It does not have to mean that either Jesus or His Father lost anything forever.
It should be seen in terms of the Old Testament sacrificial law.
The person whole sins are forgiven (for a time) gave an spotless animal to be sacrificed.
The person lost something but in the long run it did not matter to the person and God forgave the sins.
This was a shadow of what was to come, Jesus and His sacrifice.
Humans cannot pay the value of our own lives, the ransom price for ourselves.
God supplied that price, Jesus, who suffered and died as a sinless man (like the spotless animal).
Both Jesus and His Father suffered for a short time but the price was paid and God accepted it as the ransom for the lives of everyone if they accepted that gift from God.

 

[dybmh]

Didn't Jesus already exist in Heaven prior to being born by Mary?

Ths gets complicated.

... The word became flesh ... John chapter 1. There's a sequence there. Although, as I proposed, that isn't accurate from the eternal perspective, only from the finite perspective. But since the intended audience is finite, it makes sense to describe it in those terms.

Sometimes in the epistles, Jesus is referred to as Christ-Jesus. This indicates the progression. Jesus is a manifestation of "Christ", a manifestation of the Word. It's the Word which pre-existed. That's what is described in the Christian bible.

But, in truth, if a person believes the story, I'm not asking you to believe it, just trying to answer your questions *about it*, all of it pre-existed. The whole story and every event that transpired. Each and everything that was, is, will be, all of it "pre-existed".

So even that term "pre-existed" becomes meaningless from an eternal perspective.

I think the best way to consider it is: God had a plan, in its brain, for lack of a better word. This plan included creating finite imperfect beings. God knew that they would fail, and so, part of the plan included the NT story and all of those events which would occur. Because God is omnipotent, once those events were "planned" they "pre-existed", they were "destined" to occur, nothing could stop it.

Once the idea of "Jesus" was called into existence in the "God-head" it 'poofed' into existence. But because God is eternal, there is no before, current, or after. So, "Jesus" the word-made-flesh always and forever existed, and always and forever will exist, unless God chooses to wipe it.

Hopefully this helps. It's weird, I know, because, as humans, its requried to really-really stretch to consider it from an eternal perspective.

 

[Link]

Isa (a) coming to this world, witnessing his cousin Yahya (a) martyred over whims of a Kahen King who then gives Yahya's (a) head to a prostitute and seeing a world turn away from his beloved Lord and worshiping Satanic idols, is more suffering than any of us suffered in this world.

This is because Isa (a) is a compassionate soul, that cares about mankind, but God could've had kept his close ones (sons) away from mankind, and not sent any guidance to us, but has decided to send them so that we benefit from them and kept purified by them.

God sacrifices his chosen to suffer in this world though he loves them the most, out of compassionate to mankind, and because he knows they are compassionate souls who would want to help mankind.

He took a pledge from them.

They don't die by both God's permission and their permission. If they choose to leave us and die, it is for the sake of God. If God safeguards one of them and brings to sky/heaven, then it's for the sake of God and benefit of mankind and Jinn, that God and them choose that.

Isa (a) in talking about himself as command by God - and as revealed in the Gospels - is about not just himself, but his cousin Yahya (a) and those before him of the chosen kings and anointed ones.

And it's also to prepare the world for Mohammad (s) and his family (a) which he prophecizes.

He came to a world that does not deserve him, frankly, and we are lucky to have God's chosen.

 

[Brian2]

Isa (a) coming to this world, witnessing his cousin Yahya (a) martyred over whims of a Kahen King who then gives Yahya's (a) head to a prostitute and seeing a world turn away from his beloved Lord and worshiping Satanic idols, is more suffering than any of us suffered in this world.

This is because Isa (a) is a compassionate soul, that cares about mankind, but God could've had kept his close ones (sons) away from mankind, and not sent any guidance to us, but has decided to send them so that we benefit from them and kept purified by them.

God sacrifices his chosen to suffer in this world though he loves them the most, out of compassionate to mankind, and because he knows they are compassionate souls who would want to help mankind.

He took a pledge from them.

They don't die by both God's permission and their permission. If they choose to leave us and die, it is for the sake of God. If God safeguards one of them and brings to sky/heaven, then it's for the sake of God and benefit of mankind and Jinn, that God and them choose that.

Isa (a) in talking about himself as command by God - and as revealed in the Gospels - is about not just himself, but his cousin Yahya (a) and those before him of the chosen kings and anointed ones.

And it's also to prepare the world for Mohammad (s) and his family (a) which he prophecizes.

He came to a world that does not deserve him, frankly, and we are lucky to have God's chosen.

Who is greater, the Messiah, the Son of God or Muhammad?
Where does Jesus prophesy about Muhammad?

 

[Link]

Who is greater, the Messiah, the Son of God or Muhammad?
Where does Jesus prophesy about Muhammad?

Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are the greatest family. Musa (a) and his successors including Isa (a) are second best household chosen by God.

If Trinity is not an interpretation and holy spirit is the leader of time and is about a position/job, it becomes clear that Mohammad (s) is prophesized which is why trinity was introduced to make ambiguous what otherwise is clear.

 

[Brian2]

Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are the greatest family. Musa (a) and his successors including Isa (a) are second best household chosen by God.

If Trinity is not an interpretation and holy spirit is the leader of time and is about a position/job, it becomes clear that Mohammad (s) is prophesized which is why trinity was introduced to make ambiguous what otherwise is clear.

The Holy Spirit, as God's Spirit that came at Pentecost (Acts 2) is not Muhammad.
This Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit of Truth and the Paraclete/Comforter spoken of in John's gospel. (John 14,15,16)
He was to come and dwell in the disciples of Jesus. (John 14:17) This cannot be Muhammad.

 

[Link]

The Holy Spirit, as God's Spirit that came at Pentecost (Acts 2) is not Muhammad.
This Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit of Truth and the Paraclete/Comforter spoken of in John's gospel. (John 14,15,16)
He was to come and dwell in the disciples of Jesus. (John 14:17) This cannot be Muhammad.

Not all the time, it was Adam (a) at one point, John the Baptist (a) at another point and Jesus (a) at another. When Jesus (a) left, it was Elijah (a). Elijah (a) carried till Mohammad (s) came.

Holy spirit is the position of the inward companionship of God's chosen images/words of light brought to life. Jesus (a) had the position of light upon all things, but so long as he was in this world, per his own words. So when he left, Elijah (a) had this position, and this is why Jesus (a) mentioned John the Baptist, not being recognized, same with Elijah (a) would not be recognized, and just as Jesus (a) is being rejected. So there was wisdom in Elijah (a) coming back and why he was witnessed with Moses (a) by disciples.

This is the inward companionship of God's elite anointed kings. Simon (a) was successor to Jesus (a) as far social/political/outward religious leadership, but the inward spiritual sword of light position of Jesus (a), the successor was Elijah (a) who came back to this world for a reason. Who was with Moses (a) witnessed by disciples for a reason. Who is alive for a reason. Who was predicted to be there when the messiah from David (a) comes.

But the future instance of the spirit of truth and that holy position prophesized is Mohammad (s).

 

[Brian2]

Not all the time, it was Adam (a) at one point, John the Baptist (a) at another point and Jesus (a) at another. When Jesus (a) left, it was Elijah (a). Elijah (a) carried till Mohammad (s) came.

Holy spirit is the position of the inward companionship of God's chosen images/words of light brought to life. Jesus (a) had the position of light upon all things, but so long as he was in this world, per his own words. So when he left, Elijah (a) had this position, and this is why Jesus (a) mentioned John the Baptist, not being recognized, same with Elijah (a) would not be recognized, and just as Jesus (a) is being rejected. So there was wisdom in Elijah (a) coming back and why he was witnessed with Moses (a) by disciples.

This is the inward companionship of God's elite anointed kings. Simon (a) was successor to Jesus (a) as far social/political/outward religious leadership, but the inward spiritual sword of light position of Jesus (a), the successor was Elijah (a) who came back to this world for a reason. Who was with Moses (a) witnessed by disciples for a reason. Who is alive for a reason. Who was predicted to be there when the messiah from David (a) comes.

But the future instance of the spirit of truth and that holy position prophesized is Mohammad (s).

Is all that in the Quran?

 

[Link]

Is all that in the Quran?

It's verified by Quran, yes.

 

[Brian2]

It's verified by Quran, yes.

And how about Baha'u'llah of the Baha'is? Where does he fit in?

 

[Link]

And how about Baha'u'llah of the Baha'is? Where does he fit in?

He does not.

 

[Ebionite]

Not really... people don't realize that there was a High Sabbath that year... two Sabbaths that week. Timeline fits.

No, the High Sabbath was on the same day as the weekly sabbath. You can get an empty tomb on the third day otherwise.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

The sign of Jonah is the most public indication that there are problems with the doctrine of the resurrection. There are others.

 

[Kenny]

No, the High Sabbath was on the same day as the weekly sabbath. You can get an empty tomb on the third day otherwise.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

The sign of Jonah is the most public indication that there are problems with the doctrine of the resurrection. There are others.

No... it was on a different day.

 

[Ebionite]

No... it was on a different day.

So you think that Luke wasn't reliable?