Skwim
Veteran Member
So what scripture means all depends on what a person needs it to mean. One of those gambits that sits right alongside cherry picking.
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Where was God during the Las Vegas shooting?
- Thread starter davidor
- Start date
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Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Very good.
Revelation uses symbols and signs to tell us things. Not all things are therefore literal:
Rotherham Translation: Rev 1:1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to point out unto his servants the things which must needs come to pass with speed,—and he shewed them by signs, sending through his messenger, unto his servant John;
It becomes necessary then to read it with care so as to determine what is said, is it to be taken literally or figuratively. That is the question we must answer when reading it. Most of the time, this is not difficult to ascertain.
Destroy, destruction
Do you agree that when things are destroyed, the thing destroyed is now no more and may be in pieces, small or large, or may be burned up in fire to be totally gone - ashes left only?
What I am talking about is a harmonious interpretation of scripture, please consider the following:
Matthew 7:13:
13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
Matthew 10:28:
28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mark 1:24:
24 saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus thou Nazarene? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Luke 17:27:
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:29:
29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all:
Acts 3:23:
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
Romans 9:22:
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
I Corinthians 10:10:
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.
II Thessalonians 1:9:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
I Timothy 6:9:
9 But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition.
James 4:12:
12 One only is the lawgiver and judge, even he who is able to save and to destroy: but who art thou that judgest thy neighbor?
II Peter 2:1:
1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
II Peter 2:3:
3 And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
II Peter 2:12:
12 But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,
II Peter 3:7:
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
II Peter 3:16:
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Jude 1:5:
5 Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:10:
10 But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed.
The place of Gehenna and the Lake of Fire refer to the same fate -- namely destruction. As fire totally may destroy something, those whom God puts into this place are totally destroyed. They have no reward, they will be in death, eternal sleep forever.
Isa 26:10-14, Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah … .14 They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up. Therefore you have turned your attention that you might annihilate them and destroy all mention of them. (NW)
Ps 49:14-19, As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him. 15Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. 16Fear not, when one maketh wealth, When the honour of his house is abundant, 17For at his death he receiveth nothing, His honour goeth not down after him. 18For his soul in his life he blesseth, (And they praise thee when thou dost well for thyself.) 19It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light. 20Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off! (YLT)
Ps 69:26-28, For they have pursued him Thou hast smitten, And recount of the pain of Thy pierced ones. 27Give punishment for their iniquity, And they enter not into Thy righteousness. 28They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written. 29And I am afflicted and pained, Thy salvation, O God, doth set me on high. (YLT)
Ps 9:5, Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever. (YLT)
Please look at Revelation of your quote:
". . .where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The beast is the many headed symbolic beast that depicts governments. These governments shall be thrown into the lake of fire. This is not an individual or several; The same may be said about the false prophet, it is probably some institution or several. Thus, when these are thrown into the Lake of Fire - it means that they are destroyed forever. They do not suffer and cannot since they are neither people nor angels.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
You like this phrase, "cherry picking" - I say that a harmonious study of scripture, all scripture, shows us what kind of God we are dealing with, and one single scripture must not derail the whole train.
For example, did I show you this?
31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: How much more the wicked and the sinner!
and
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.
and
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Here we see that God shall recompense the righteous while they live, but it goes further doesn't it! It also says that God is going to recompense the wicked and the sinner. So .... There you have your evil that God creates. Yes, he creates evil for the evil ones.
The same thought is brought out in the next scripture. Here we see that God's loving-kindness cause him to give everyone what they deserve. In this way, the evil person gets evil (once again) and the good one gets good gifts.
So . . .! Are you looking to find the God of the Bible? Or, one of your own opinion? That is the question. Not cherry picking, unless, we talk about those who do not attribute to God what should be attributed.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I use the term "cherry picking" because it aptly describes what many Christians do with the Bible: "selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available." And it turns up quite frequently here of RF.
Got a book and chapter for these? In any case, I fail their relevance.
From the way you tell it, all I'd have to do is construct god as he best fits my needs, which doesn't interest me in the least, primarily because I have no personal use for a god. But as I understand your approach to god it's to ignore those scriptures, like Isaiah 45:7, which don't fit your god-model in favor of those that do. In effect, "selectively choosing (the most beneficial items) from what is available."
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djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
When you look at fire from a human perspective, you are right. If you look at it from a spiritual perspective, you are wrong. You don't believe that God is able to create fire that doesn't totally destroy something?
Exodus 3:2-3 (ESV Strong's) 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.”
Jesus used sleep to describe death, why would He do that if death is ceasing to exist? When you go to "sleep" at night, have you ceased to exist? No, you just enter another state of consciousness?
Like Lazarus:
John 11:4 (ESV Strong's) 4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
Jesus said Lazarus' illness did not LEAD to death, didn't Lazarus DIE, as we consider death?
Jesus said: John 11:11 (ESV Strong's) “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”
If Jesus knew that death meant ceasing to exist, why wouldn't He have said first, "Lazarus is dead" and I go to resurrect him? Because death isn't the end, it's another state of consciousness, just as when we sleep at night.
Matthew 7:13 isn't referring the final death, it's referring to life, If you read it in context with verse 12. There are many ways a persons life can be destroyed, the loss of a job is one example, divorce is another, sickness another.
Matthew 7:12-14 (ESV Strong's) 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I'll ask again, can an unconscious person be tormented? Can someone who ceases to exist be tormented?
When I look at death from a witness belief, I think, why should I serve God or believe in Jesus? I can live how I want, do what I want, have all the fun I want, because I will just be annihilated. I won't miss anything if I am annihilated, I won't remember anything, it'll be as tho I never existed so why try to be good? I won't know that I'm not in heaven or on paradise earth, there's no reason for me to do good, none.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
For sure! That's why a lot of "righteous people" suffer in this life and "wicked people" thrive.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Where's your scripture reference for this statement?
And for this one,
So what? You'll be annihilated, you won't remember or know anything! You won't know you're not in heaven or in paradise, you won't know how good your family and friends have it. You won't be thinking, 'I wonder what they're doing in paradise right now', so what does it matter if you are damned? There's no pain or torment, no suffering, no regrets, so shoot, roll with the flow!!
And for this one,
So what? You'll be annihilated, you won't remember or know anything! You won't know you're not in heaven or in paradise, you won't know how good your family and friends have it. You won't be thinking, 'I wonder what they're doing in paradise right now', so what does it matter if you are damned? There's no pain or torment, no suffering, no regrets, so shoot, roll with the flow!!
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
You surprise me! The first line is Proverbs 11:31, line #2 is Psalms 62:12.
That makes it hard if not impossible to reach a common consensus, when from the beginning it is uncommonly different. No wonder you say the following:
If that is your take on what I written - so be it.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Being "tormented" day and night isn't literal?
"and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."?
g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture: — pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
The torture and pain of non existent...?
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Well, if you weren't there, couldn't be there and aren't there now, who are you to be questioning God about it?
Hildeburh
Active Member
This question appears as a general discussion but it seems to me that you are asking where the Christian god was? Because this question makes little sense from the perspective of pre Christian polytheistic mythologies.
From a Christian worldview are three possible answers:
1. He/She did not care to intervene,
2. He/She does not exist,
3. He/She did not have the power to intervene.
From a polytheistic worldview, the gods/esses instigated conflict, raped, broke oaths, committed adultery and were tricksters; the lives of the god/esses were complicated, often amoral and petty.... Not too different from human society.
Why would you expect a God/ess to intervene unless he/she had a vested interest in your wellbeing?
From a Christian worldview are three possible answers:
1. He/She did not care to intervene,
2. He/She does not exist,
3. He/She did not have the power to intervene.
From a polytheistic worldview, the gods/esses instigated conflict, raped, broke oaths, committed adultery and were tricksters; the lives of the god/esses were complicated, often amoral and petty.... Not too different from human society.
Why would you expect a God/ess to intervene unless he/she had a vested interest in your wellbeing?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
I'm not with the WT. My beliefs differ significantly from theirs on many points. On other points, I agree. I try to go by the Bible, Sola Scriptura. Thus there may be some I agree with at times, while I disagree with them most other times.
Luke 23:43 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
John 5:28 Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life,
John 11:23-25 . . .: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life. . .
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ.
John 5:28 Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life,
John 11:23-25 . . .: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life. . .
Rom 2: 14 For when those of the nations, which have no law, practise by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law to themselves; 15 who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ.I prefer eternal life though the road is narrow and painful.
Well, here is something to chew on then:
Job 3:13-18, For now I should have lain down and been quiet. I should have slept. Then I would have been at rest 14with kings and counselors of the earth, who built waste places for themselves, 15or with rulers who had gold, who filled their houses with silver. 16Or I should have been as a hidden untimely birth, as infants that never saw light. 17There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. 18There the prisoners are at ease together. They do not hear the voice of the taskmaster (ACV)
Isa 26:10-14, Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah … .14 They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up. Therefore you have turned your attention that you might annihilate them and destroy all mention of them. (NW)
Ps 49:14-19, As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him. 15Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. 16Fear not, when one maketh wealth, When the honour of his house is abundant, 17For at his death he receiveth nothing, His honour goeth not down after him. 18For his soul in his life he blesseth, (And they praise thee when thou dost well for thyself.) 19It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light. 20Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off! (YLT)
Ps 69:26-28, For they have pursued him Thou hast smitten, And recount of the pain of Thy pierced ones. 27Give punishment for their iniquity, And they enter not into Thy righteousness. 28They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written. 29And I am afflicted and pained, Thy salvation, O God, doth set me on high. (YLT)
Ps 9:5, Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever. (YLT)
Isa 26:10-14, Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah … .14 They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up. Therefore you have turned your attention that you might annihilate them and destroy all mention of them. (NW)
Ps 49:14-19, As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him. 15Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. 16Fear not, when one maketh wealth, When the honour of his house is abundant, 17For at his death he receiveth nothing, His honour goeth not down after him. 18For his soul in his life he blesseth, (And they praise thee when thou dost well for thyself.) 19It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light. 20Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off! (YLT)
Ps 69:26-28, For they have pursued him Thou hast smitten, And recount of the pain of Thy pierced ones. 27Give punishment for their iniquity, And they enter not into Thy righteousness. 28They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written. 29And I am afflicted and pained, Thy salvation, O God, doth set me on high. (YLT)
Ps 9:5, Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever. (YLT)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
That's good, but it's their belief of death too, and that's what I was commenting about.
No witness will answer this question, maybe you will,
If we cease to exist, "sleep" when we die, we know nothing, have no conscious thoughts, why would this writer make this statement?
Philippians 1:21-23 (ESV Strong's) 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
It was hard for him to choose between dying and living, why do you think that would be a hard decision, if he knew he ceased to exist when he died? He looked at death as "gain", his desire was to die so he would be with Jesus. Does that sound like he knew he wouldn't exist for thousands of years before being with Jesus?
Wirey
Fartist
God was sitting at a craps table in Casino Royale, betting the lives of believers and unbelievers alike. Just like every day. If anyone is sooooo foolish as to believe a god who allows children to die of starvation every single day actually gives a damn about whether or not they're kissing his keester, they deserve to be the next one chosen by him when he needs another $5 chip to bet on Big 6.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Rom 2: 14 For when those of the nations, which have no law, practise by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law to themselves; 15 who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves
So, you're saying that "good people" get a second chance? It doesn't matter that one must be saved, be righteous to be accepted by God, a "good person" will get another chance in paradise? Sounds like you share another witness belief!
*** bh p. 214 par. 3-p. 215 par. 1 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:12) Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “The one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.
Judgment Day will give billions of people their first opportunity to learn about God’s will and to conform to it. This means that a large-scale educational work will take place. Indeed, ‘the inhabitants of the land will learn about righteousness.’ (Isaiah 26:9) However, not all will be willing to conform to God’s will. Isaiah 26:10 says: “Even if the wicked is shown favor, he will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, and he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.” These wicked ones will be put to death permanently during Judgment Day.—Isaiah 65:20.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Nice to see someone knowing their Bible. Even a JW might be able to answer this, or not - you could try to see if their answer is the same as mine. This is btw one serious place where my focus and the WT focus differs. I focus on Jesus Christ, not so much on God, but I am not a Trinitarian.
OK! Back to your question. You most likely know that the teaching is that there are two main groups, the Little Flock of 144,000 and the Other Sheep which includes the Great Crowd. If you don't know what I am talking about, ask.
The 144,000 will all be resurrected in bodies similar to Jesus' spirit body when he was resurrected. They shall be king-priest under Christ over the earth when the kingdom is established. All other Christians shall receive human bodies in Paradise on earth.
Thus Paul's desire to die and be resurrected - is clear! When you die, according to this teaching you sleep. Time is of no importance so whether you died 5000 years ago or 10 years ago, or like Paul, 2000 years ago, when the dead one is resurrected the effect is as if there is death and then an instantaneous resurrection. Paul desired to be with Christ in heaven with the heavenly resurrection.
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I share some of their beliefs, but don't misconstrue this. I go directly by the Bible. If that happens to align with a church or not, is not my problem.
I have never seen the WT quoting Romans 2:14, 15 in this regard. But, then I don't read their literature for many many years.
I often hear....
"God doesn't give us anything we can't handle."
Clearly, those children just aren't handling starvation as well as they should.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Ah, you must be an apostate, right? You were a witness but left for your own religion? You still hold beliefs of theirs.
I am well aware of the "elite" class and the "domestics". The "governing body" of the witnesses use it to make themselves better than the rank and file witness, there are no scriptures to back up that claim.
Book and verse? Not your opinion please!
You just happened to believe the false teachings of a religion without knowing they taught it?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
You're stating things incorrectly. I go by the Bible. If this happens to coincide with their beliefs at times, so be it. It bothers me not.
Sorry, again, you got it wrong. They are the ones who have apostated from God, not me. If you look at their church, how many of their flock are apostates from Christendom? Thus, the usage of the word apostate should mirror who or what one apostates from. Those who become apostates from God, shall be written into the earth. Leaving a church you don't agree with - is not apostasy. Ask the WT - are their members mostly apostates?
The WT encourages and preaches to all here and there, near and far, that they must leave false religion to be saved. In this too, I agree a 100%. A friend of mine became mad at me for telling him that I do not believe in a flat earth and that it is an imbecilic claim. I told him to pursue science, math, and geometry.
I do not agree with the WT on a great many points, and the same goes for the Trinitarian churches.
I say, go to the Bible, by the Bible. That is where the truth is found, religious truth, that is.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Compatibilism isn't determinism. It's a "gray area" between free-will and determinism.
Yes. The fact so many people have wondered about and suspected I have Asperger's--because I display enough characteristics that are common for Aspies--alone makes it impossible for me to accept free will. If I go on spewing out every last detail about something I know, it's not because I chose to, it's because that's how my brain works. As another example, any "mental sting" I feel when I hear someone say they missed out on their child's life from working second shift, I tend to think of second shift as a terrible thing and is so very anti-family because my own dad worked second shift and was pretty much absent from my life.
I'm not a determinist, as I don't believe everything I do is the cause of something else, but knowing about myself, my culture, those around me, my upbringing, genetics, I just can't live with the delusion that every point in my life, every choice, every action, was made of my own free agency. However, the more you become aware of these factors that influence you, the better equipped you are to recognize when your actions aren't freely chosen but rather impulses coming from deep within.
You have to consider not just how those things from past effect as random influences, but you have to consider such things also shape our worldviews. I read a debate between French philosopher Micheal Foucault and a Chinese Maosist, and the Maoist was raised to have the world view to see Maoism is something great, the exact opposite of how we in the West were taught to think of it. Being rich or poor is another than has deep implications for shaping and forming our worldviews and who we are.
That is something a compatibilist or determinist would say.