Where was God during the Las Vegas shooting?

[djhwoodwerks]

Well, here is something to chew on then:
Job 3:13-18, For now I should have lain down and been quiet. I should have slept. Then I would have been at rest 14with kings and counselors of the earth, who built waste places for themselves, 15or with rulers who had gold, who filled their houses with silver. 16Or I should have been as a hidden untimely birth, as infants that never saw light. 17There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. 18There the prisoners are at ease together. They do not hear the voice of the taskmaster (ACV)

Isa 26:10-14, Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah … .14 They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up. Therefore you have turned your attention that you might annihilate them and destroy all mention of them. (NW)

Ps 49:14-19, As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him. 15Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. 16Fear not, when one maketh wealth, When the honour of his house is abundant, 17For at his death he receiveth nothing, His honour goeth not down after him. 18For his soul in his life he blesseth, (And they praise thee when thou dost well for thyself.) 19It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light. 20Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off! (YLT)

Ps 69:26-28, For they have pursued him Thou hast smitten, And recount of the pain of Thy pierced ones. 27Give punishment for their iniquity, And they enter not into Thy righteousness. 28They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written. 29And I am afflicted and pained, Thy salvation, O God, doth set me on high. (YLT)

Ps 9:5, Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever. (YLT)

This doesn't answer the question, "Can someone who ceases to exist be tormented"? "Can someone who is not conscious be tormented"?

Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture: — pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

What is the verse symbolizing?

Please read the full definition of that word "tormented" and tell me if it will have any affect on an unconscious person, let alone someone who doesn't exist any more.

Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The WT encourages and preaches to all here and there, near and far, that they must leave false religion to be saved. In this too, I agree a 100%.

Have you found the only true religion also?

I say, go to the Bible, by the Bible. That is where the truth is found, religious truth, that is.

Revelation uses symbols and signs to tell us things. Not all things are therefore literal:

Taking 12,000 out of the 12 tribes, by name, of Israel isn't symbolic, it's literal? And where in Bible truth will I find the 144,000 elite class of people that are the only ones who go to heaven?

Where will I find the "little flock" stays little in the Bible?

John 10:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe God to be incompetent; I believe him (the Mormon one, at least - I don't hold opinions on every god... or even every god called "God") to be fabricated.

In any case, I think you took the wrong intent from my post: I was saying that a god worth his salt would be capable of intervening in a way that works out for the best.

Actually, with a god worth his salt, the question of God intervening would be moot, since a perfect designer's design wouldn't have the imperfections that would need intervention later.

If we assume that God exists and this world and its contents are an expression of his will, then anything on Earth that goes against God's will is a failure on the part of God.


... and then I'll see that all the suffering in the world really was for the best?

You do charitable work, don't you? If you really think that God is right to let suffering and human misery go unaddressed, why would you feel the need to do something about them?

Suit yourself, Penquin. I suspect any further dialogue between us on this issue will be a waste of time for both of us. We're simply at opposite ends of the spectrum and neither of us is likely to budge an inch. So, I'm just going to excuse myself from further discussion at this point.

 

[Deeje]

This doesn't answer the question, "Can someone who ceases to exist be tormented"? "Can someone who is not conscious be tormented"?

Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture: — pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

What is the verse symbolizing?

Please read the full definition of that word "tormented" and tell me if it will have any affect on an unconscious person, let alone someone who doesn't exist any more.

The primary definition of the word rendered "torment" according to Strongs is...."to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal".

"Myth 4: Some people are tormented after death.

Many religions teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever. Is this teaching logical and Scriptural? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short lifetime.

Only God can reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell. Humans return to dust—to nonexistence—when they die.

In order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? Once again, the Bible gives the answer: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, who are “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience agony anywhere."

A Closer Look at Some Myths About Death — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

That being the case, this "torment" has to happen before the person is dead. How were Jesus' opposers "tormented" in the first century? How did they 'gnash their teeth' at what Jesus taught? It was whilst they were plotting to get rid of him. His teachings were exposing their error and they were not about to change......they would not admit their error and simply wanted to silence him....no difference today.

Since the "lake of fire" mentioned in connection with those tormented it is interesting to note what the "lake of fire" is......
Revelation 20:14
"And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."

Since "death and the grave" are also hurled into this "lake" it is obviously not a literal place. It "means the second death" which is a death from which no resurrection is possible.....nothing thrown into this symbolic lake ever comes out of it.

It is not the fire that lasts forever but "the smoke" that is associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten.

 

[Grandliseur]

your actions aren't freely chosen but rather impulses coming from deep within.

I have run into this. There are times when being very highly stressed out in a way that nearly ruins you - that certain actions are unavoidable; unless, the situation is drastically changed.

such things also shape our worldviews. I read a debate between French philosopher Micheal Foucault and a Chinese Maosist, and the Maoist was raised to have the world view to see Maoism is something great, the exact opposite of how we in the West were taught to think of it. .

For sure, not all humans are acting as someone from LA, or Europe, etc. Many act in ways that cannot be comprehended with a western culture.They might as well also be alien.

There is always cause and effect, and a small amount of free will. So, while I recognize that some of my choices may not be free will but may come from an internal state that forces certain reactions upon me, I still subscribe to free will to do small personal things. Though, even that may be highly controlled by external realities. Fortunately, I am too limited to see how limited my reality is most of the time.

 

[Grandliseur]

This doesn't answer the question, "Can someone who ceases to exist be tormented"? "Can someone who is not conscious be tormented"?

Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture: — pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

What is the verse symbolizing?

Please read the full definition of that word "tormented" and tell me if it will have any affect on an unconscious person, let alone someone who doesn't exist any more.

Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The problem with a paradox is that it is a paradox. You cannot have on one hand that death is the return to not being, and on the other hand that somehow a person may exist and suffer eternally after death.

Job 14:12 12 Man also has to lie down and does not get up. Until heaven is no more they will not wake up, Nor will they be aroused from their sleep.
Job 24:24 . . .They have become high up a little while, then they are no more, And they have been brought low; like everyone else they are plucked off. . .
Job 7:21 . . .For now in dust I shall lie down; And you will certainly look for me, and I shall not be.”​

Thus, a harmonious interpretation forces the solving of the Gordian Knot in one way or the other.

If in e.g. Jude, it speaks of eternal fires of Sodom:

Jude 7 . . .are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.​

If we go down to those cities today, we see their being totally destroyed by fire, but no fire burning at present. This means that the 'everlasting fire' they experience refers clearly to the result of total destruction.

This means that I must make a choice. Do the fires of the Lake of Fire need to be interpreted similarly? Does the suffering then mean something else.
I can only solve one paradox at a time. If then I am wrong and the suffering turns out to be eternal, I hope to be alive to find out.

How do you solve this question when Jude seems to give the solution, when death on one hand seems to be non-existence, and on the other, there is promised eternal suffering to the devil, which I don't mind?! The ball is in your half of the court.

​

 

[Grandliseur]

Have you found the only true religion also?

I have found that no denomination teaches the simple truths from the Bible. I keep on learning, and if you read my post to your first question, you will see I don't mind learning.
The truth is found in scriptures, apart from the domination of what churches say.

Taking 12,000 out of the 12 tribes, by name, of Israel isn't symbolic, it's literal?

Yes, those numbers are literal, but compare the tribes here with the tribes of the ancient nation of Israel, and you will find they don't match. Thus when you read James and others, you will understand this Israel is the Spiritual Israel.

James 1:1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.​

Here, James lived at a time of Israel in Palestine. He wasn't speaking about that nation here; he was speaking about the Spiritual Israel.

As Peter also says, Christians are a holy nation.

1 Peter 2:7-10 7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense.” These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.​

Little flock:

Luke 12:32 32 “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.
Read Daniel chapter 7, Ps 72. In Daniel we see the saints are given the kingdom of all earth. Compared to a global population in billions, 144000 is a little flock of rulers.

​

 

[djhwoodwerks]

This means that the 'everlasting fire' they experience refers clearly to the result of total destruction.

Clearly? "everlasting FIRE" means total destruction? Clearly!

Why don't nonbelievers of hell fire realize that God, the creator of all, Who alone can create what He wills, can't create an "everlasting fire"? Why can non believers of hell fire only perceive the physical, man made fire? You need to remember, the lake of fire was created for satan and his demons, it's a spiritual fire, not fire like we have on earth.

If in e.g. Jude, it speaks of eternal fires of Sodom:
Jude 7 . . .are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.If we go down to those cities today, we see their being totally destroyed by fire, but no fire burning at present. This means that the 'everlasting fire' they experience refers clearly to the result of total destruction.

Let's see what Jude is talking about,

Jude 1:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Who's being punished here, the cities themselves, or the people in the cities? I vote, the people! Because a house or barn can't indulge in sexual immorality, can it? Are the houses being punished for what the people did? Did God punish the people by destroying their cities and leaving them homeless?

 

[Grandliseur]

it's a spiritual fire, not fire like we have on earth.

OK. So, we will have to wait and see how the paradox is resolved. You didn't mention anything about that.

Who's being punished here, the cities themselves, or the people in the cities? I vote, the people!

Naturally, the people. Anyway, you have your take on it; I have mine. Again, the paradox of there then being two teachings if we accept yours to be true - cannot be avoided.

If during my about 70 years of life, or anyone else for that matter, do evil, do you really think this merits - eternal suffering?

Please take the paradox into consideration and solve that. Or, propose a solution.
If your teaching could be demonstrated without a paradox to be true Biblically, I would not stand against it.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

it's a spiritual fire, not fire like we have on earth.

OK. So, we will have to wait and see how the paradox is resolved. You didn't mention anything about that.

God can create a fire that burns without destroying.

Exodus 3:2-3 (ESV Strong's) 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.”

If during my about 70 years of life, or anyone else for that matter, do evil, do you really think this merits - eternal suffering?

Is it really about what WE think evil merits? The "lake of fire" was created for satan and his demons, so it's spiritual, why do you think God would have to "create" eternal destruction?

I've derailed this thread long enough! Here's a more suitable thread, if you're interested.

Eternal Damnation

 

[davidor]

Maybe you should be blaming Satan instead of God.

Our pastor told us that God is everywhere at all times. Satan can only be in one place at any one time. Satan has helpers that does work on his behalf all around the world... But still god is covering every inch of the world including inches the devil occupies. So he was there and supervised the devil as the snipper took out the crowd or the guy killed almost everyone in a local church a few Sundays ago. Or is the devil more powerful than god?

 

[Muffled]

While I appreciate your effort in responding, you answered neither of my questions.

I believe I try not to give answers that are too painful for people to accept. God does not consider it murder when He takes a life because He considers it His prerogative. Yes, he may take relatively innocent people in order to punish the evil people who think murder is ok. There is even a chance that a relatively innocent person might end up in Hell when the world ends but those in Hell are raised up to face the final judgement where they migh get an out of hell free card.

 

[Muffled]

I'll let you be the one to tell this guy that the foundation of his newfound faith is wrong, then:



*Las Vegas shooting survivor reveals he has found God | Daily Mail Online


This is nonsense, of course.

I believe God would be willing to do this to save just one soul. That is how precious He considers each soul.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe God would be willing to do this to save just one soul. That is how precious He considers each soul.

How about the countless people who will lose faith in God because of the incident?

 

[Muffled]

How about the countless people who will lose faith in God because of the incident?

I believe they can't lose what they never had.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe they can't lose what they never had.

Kinda counting the hits and ignoring the misses, aren't you?

 

[Haroldo Calle]

I always ask this question after something bad happens. It makes me mad when something good happens and everyone praises god for the great things he provides. But then something bad happens and god gave us free will. This just means stuff happens. Good and bad... stuff happens. God isn't controlling anything. If he's real, it makes me mad that he can just sit by and watch this stuff and do nothing about it. I struggle with religion. I've been reading a lot of books by Tim Keller and Case for Christ, and a few others. Once in a while, I'll start feeling like maybe there is something. But then something like Las Vegas or the Church shooting that just happened not too far from where I live here in Tennessee happens and then I ask, where was god? Was he just taking the day off? Does he not care? Or does he just not exist?

Hi davidor: You make some good points, topics definitely worthy of discussion. I would love to discuss these matters with you, but first I have some questions: You make several statements regarding what God has/hasn't done, i.e., (1) what he has given us; (2) what he controls or doesn't control; (3) where he was when the horrible incident in Las Vegas took place; (4) his existence. Your questions are extremely important, things I would like to discuss with you. First, you say things about the makeup of God and what he is like. May I ask you the source of your information about God's attributes and actions? If that seems a little confusing, let me clarify: For example, you say that God gave us free will. Where did you get that information? And what do you mean by "free will"? I just need clarification so that we can intelligently discuss these matters. Thanks so much for your consideration. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Muffled]

Kinda counting the hits and ignoring the misses, aren't you?

I believe once one has faith there is no way to lose it. What does happen is that a person's beliefs can be very shallow and easily shaken. That is what the separation of sheep and goats does. THe terrors that come reveal who really has faith and who is just along for the ride.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe once one has faith there is no way to lose it. What does happen is that a person's beliefs can be very shallow and easily shaken. That is what the separation of sheep and goats does. THe terrors that come reveal who really has faith and who is just along for the ride.

So if we check in on that guy who claimed to have found faith because of the shooting and discover that he has reverted back to agnosticism (or has ended up in some religion besides Christianity), will you admit that there was never any purpose behind God allowing the massacre?

 

[Muffled]

So if we check in on that guy who claimed to have found faith because of the shooting and discover that he has reverted back to agnosticism (or has ended up in some religion besides Christianity), will you admit that there was never any purpose behind God allowing the massacre?

I believe I do not.

I believe that is eminently possible as Jesus said in the parable of the sower: the seeds are sowed but an enemy steals them away or the cares of this world cause them to wither and die or simply that the person was too entrenched in his evil ways for the change to make a lasting impact.