Where was Jesus Buried.

[Subduction Zone]

Don’t answer I don’t care, you made a general comment without any support, who cares, I don’t.

I will answer. I just won't play silly games. When you make unreasonable demands and will not justify them it tells everyone that you will not deal with the evidence properly ahead of time. You tipped your hand. Never a wise move in either cards or a debate.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I will answer. I just won't play silly games. When you make unreasonable demands and will not justify them it tells everyone that you will not deal with the evidence properly ahead of time. You tipped your hand. Never a wise move in either cards or a debate.

I don’t play games and always been straight up, I’m not like you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t play games and always been straight up, I’m not like you.

Wrong again. You have that backwards. You lost that argument because instead of asking for the evidence you asked "when and where". You tipped your hand. You were looking for excuses to deny the evidence before you even heard it. Otherwise you would not ask that sort of question.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is the only record of that conversation that I know of. It is not noted officially, as far as I know, so around 260 years is what they recall.

There is also another pilgrim note where Abdu'lbaha states about 300 years in this part of a quote.

"... They were not willing to have the body of His Holiness Jesus Christ put in the Jews’ cemetery. The Apostles went and bought a piece of land and interred him. Then the Jews took their refuse there. Later men came and built a great church over it. This was built by the mother of one of the Caesars, after three hundred years. Even up to this time in certain parts it is known as the Church of Refuse. This is really the Tomb of Christ. It was the place where all the refuse of the city was gathered in the day of Christ. For three hundred years it continued in this manner...."

The official statement is this.

".. Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

"Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements."

Regards Tony

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a church in the Christian Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. According to traditions dating back to the fourth century, it contains the two holiest sites in Christianity: the site where Jesus was crucified, at a place known as Calvary or Golgotha, and Jesus's empty tomb, where he is believed by Christians to have been buried and resurrected.​

And how did people know where to find the bones of Jesus? And then they took them and put them in another place? And now there is a church over that spot with an empty tomb, but Jesus' bones are under there somewhere?

Those poor dumb Christians that got martyred believing Jesus had risen from the dead. While other Christians knew about all this secret burial of the body of Jesus and kept it secret.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t think that Jesus is buried, or assumed a spirit body and made His former mortal body vanished. John 20 says that Jesus still had His wounds after the resurrection. So it wasn’t a new body, right? He came back in His old body.

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

If Jesus assumed a new body, He would not be wounded still.
His Body was spiritual in nature, sure.

Yes, that is what this gospel writer says. And what do Baha'is say about those verses? The only thing I've heard them say is that they are allegorical. To that I keep asking then why does it say in Acts that Jesus showed himself to be alive and in one of the gospels he supposedly said to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. It might be a lie, but it doesn't sound like "allegory". The other thing... Why would it be so amazing and so special if Jesus' spirit rose? I think both Christians and Baha'is believe that everybody's spirit rises when their body dies.

So I think the whole point of the story was that Jesus conquered death. If he didn't and he died and his body rotted away, then he wasn't special at all, and the stories in the gospels about him coming back to life were lies... Especially if some of those early Christians knew that his dead body was taken and hidden. And boy, were they good at keeping it secret.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a church in the Christian Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. According to traditions dating back to the fourth century, it contains the two holiest sites in Christianity: the site where Jesus was crucified, at a place known as Calvary or Golgotha, and Jesus's empty tomb, where he is believed by Christians to have been buried and resurrected.​

And how did people know where to find the bones of Jesus? And then they took them and put them in another place? And now there is a church over that spot with an empty tomb, but Jesus' bones are under there somewhere?

Those poor dumb Christians that got martyred believing Jesus had risen from the dead. While other Christians knew about all this secret burial of the body of Jesus and kept it secret.

My faith in Jesus Christ is built upon the understanding that Christ was resurrected, that Christ can never be killed by men, that they can never silence the Message given by God. I do not think any person is dumb, I would not recant that faith either well done to them.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So I think the whole point of the story was that Jesus conquered death. If he didn't and he died and his body rotted away, then he wasn't special at all, and the stories in the gospels about him coming back to life were lies... Especially if some of those early Christians knew that his dead body was taken and hidden. And boy, were they good at keeping it secret.

I see when one is Born again, the flesh becomes worthless, so how can the realisation that Jesus was the embodiment of the Holy Spirit, and that with acceptance, you have been born into that Spirit, not be very special?

The secret was as obviously as good as the Baha'i could keep, as the body of the Bab was kept a very close guarded secret as well for over 60 years. That could have gone differently as well, luckily for us it did not get lost in time, even though at one time only one person was aware of the location of the remains and was in great danger of being discovered.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not think any person is dumb,

Were those Christians that believe Jesus physically rose from the dead being smart?

So I think the whole point of the story was that Jesus conquered death. If he didn't and he died and his body rotted away, then he wasn't special at all, and the stories in the gospels about him coming back to life were lies... Especially if some of those early Christians knew that his dead body was taken and hidden.

So what would be more "special"? That Jesus came back to life as is told in the gospel stories? Or, that he died, some of his followers took and hid the body, and several years later let the gospels say that Jesus had risen from the dead? But was actually very much dead? That kind of a deception and a lie isn't it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Were those Christians that believe Jesus physically rose from the dead being smart?

They were following their heart.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Were those Christians that believe Jesus physically rose from the dead being smart?

So what would be more "special"? That Jesus came back to life as is told in the gospel stories? Or, that he died, some of his followers took and hid the body, and several years later let the gospels say that Jesus had risen from the dead? But was actually very much dead? That kind of a deception and a lie isn't it?

No, because the whole point of the story in the Bible and the Quran is that you can not kill a Messenger from God.

Is that not the most beautiful realisation. Is that not why Jesus as Christ will always be Loved, we have Baha'i of all Faiths and no Faith also have now embraced that Love, the Oneness of God, the Oneness of the Messengers.

Imagine what Christianity could have done if they had embraced the extent that Jesus was teaching about this Oneness. Passages that did not have this vision but now can be embraced are passages such as this;

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

That makes perfect sense, that all faiths are from God and there will be a time we will embrace that concept. First we must learn to share our toys, progressive revelation is the key underlying reason.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No, because the whole point of the story in the Bible and the Quran is that you can not kill a Messenger from God.

Well Tony... If the gospel stories are literally true, then Jesus physically came back to life. That would be pretty impressive. Even today, that is what some Christians teach and believe. They explain away the problems and limitations of a normal physical body by saying he was resurrected into a "glorified" body.

But you ask, "Where was Jesus buried"? The gospels tell you where, but he was only in the tomb a short time. The belief is that Jesus conquered death and Satan... that God would not let the body of Jesus rot away. But is any of that true? Today, it's hard to believe. And considering that in ancient times there were other God/man that died and rose again, I don't think it would've been surprising for the gospel writers to have made up the resurrection up story. But then, the gospels are based on a lie.

Baha'is don't believe the NT is a lie. But Baha'is also don't believe Jesus physically rose from the dead. So even though in one of the gospels Jesus says to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost, and in Acts it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive with many proofs, Baha'is choose to have him dead. Why is that? It's not because you don't believe God could have done such a miracle. But, for some reason Baha'is believe God didn't bring Jesus back to life.

So then what do you do with all the gospel verses about Jesus being resurrected and the empty tomb? You make them allegorical. Maybe that works for you, but really? The story continues straight from the crucifixion, to the burial, to the empty tomb, to Jesus appearing with his disciples... No change in style. No warning like, "What we just wrote was what really happened, but now we are going to tell a fictional tale of Jesus being resurrected."

But even if you want to start there and say that from the crucifixion on is allegorical, that still doesn't work because even during the crucifixion there were things that probably didn't happen, like people in Jerusalem coming out of there graves. The whole gospel story is filled with unlikely things happening. Jesus raised two dead people back to life. So Baha'is are left with having to make several stories throughout the gospels as probable allegory.

But that's what Baha'is do. They need Jesus to be real, so some of the NT needs to be true, while other stories in it, fictional. His body being dead and unimportant seems to be what you would prefer. And apparently the Baha'i leaders agree with you and tell their stories about where the body of Jesus is located. Great, let's dig it up and prove it. That would be an amazing proof that the Baha'is are right. And it would lay to rest any superstitious belief about a physically risen savior.

That makes perfect sense, that all faiths are from God and there will be a time we will embrace that concept. First we must learn to share our toys, progressive revelation is the key underlying reason.

You don't want to qualify that and say "most" all faiths? Since there's got to be some that Baha'is believe are false and not from God? Like all the religions that worshipped idols? The religions that God had his people kill and destroy for believing in false Gods?

But even with those that Baha'is do say are true religions, most all of them have a very different concept of God. Some even have multiple Gods. So again, Baha'is have to make adjustments. What do you do with the many Gods of Hinduism? What do you do with the sects of Buddhism that don't have a Abrahamic type of God? And are you okay with the warrior God of the children of Israel? That ordered them to kill woman and children? That had Elijah kill all the prophets of Baal? I know you don't believe in the God of the Trinitarian Christians.

But the worst part of "progressive" revelation is that, supposedly, God sent a messenger to a certain people and told them the truth. But that truth, every single time, got changed and distorted. Plus, God didn't have the messenger write the teachings down? God and the messenger left that to the people? So, it is very likely, that from the beginning, the message was already distorted. So did Baha'u'llah bring a new message from God? And, can the Baha'i Faith bring peace and unity to the people of the world? Are all religions one? Yes, they are one... as defined by the Baha'i Faith. And the Christianity that Baha'is believe in has a physically dead and buried Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well Tony... If the gospel stories are literally true, then Jesus physically came back to life. That would be pretty impressive. Even today, that is what some Christians teach and believe. They explain away the problems and limitations of a normal physical body by saying he was resurrected into a "glorified" body.

To me the story offers naught but the Spirit remains and that connected to that spirit can be while we are in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 4 says it well

"3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

. So did Baha'u'llah bring a new message from God? And, can the Baha'i Faith bring peace and unity to the people of the world? Are all religions one? Yes, they are one... as defined by the Baha'i Faith. And the Christianity that Baha'is believe in has a physically dead and buried Jesus.

Yes Baha'u'llah brought a Message and it is God that guides the rest of us, only to the extent that Message is embraced.

IMHO, sorry back to work.

Regards Tony

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I see that Logically Jesus was buried and was kept a secret, so that the grave would not be desecrated.

There is a talk given by Shoghi Effendi which is no an official Baha'i view, but is of interest. It was given in a talk after Shoghi Effendi had been sitting in silence for a while and he offerd this.

"People wonder what happened to the body of Christ after the crucifixion. It was buried by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem to protect it from the Roman legions. It remained buried there for some 260 years. (The Guardian gave the exact number of years but afterwards none of the pilgrims could remember precisely the number.) It remained buried under the wall of Jerusalem until the mother of the Emperor Constantine, who had herself become a Christian, came to Jerusalem and had the Church of the Holy Sepulcher built – at which time the body of Christ was removed from under the wall of the city and was placed under the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And that is where it is today. The Baha’is should be aware of this fact when they visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is the holiest place in Christendom."

There has been interest with this recently as well.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.icepop.com/jesus-tomb-opened/?amp&ved=2ahUKEwi6s8a77YvzAhXHzjgGHU38B2kQFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw08CVmRUSg_CTH04c7d0Rvm&ampcf=1&cshid=1632082639108

So plausible?

We may never know, but maybe it will be known?

Regards Tony

Naw - He rose from the dead. His body isn't on Earth anymore.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Naw - He rose from the dead. His body isn't on Earth anymore.

What makes you say that. There does not appear to be any reliable evidence for that claim and there is evidence against it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Naw - He rose from the dead. His body isn't on Earth anymore.

Agreed Christ did rise.

Correct also about the body, it is most likely underneath the earth.

Regards Tony

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Agreed Christ did rise.

Correct also about the body, it is most likely underneath the earth.

Regards Tony

Why do you believe He is beneath the Earth?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you believe He is beneath the Earth?

I will answer that question in detail, as I see it has become a most important subject. That Christ can live in our heart for eternity, without the need for flesh.

I see Jesus was a Messenger from God, born of the Holy Spirit in the Station of the Son. As such Jesus was Annointed with the Holy Spirit, which is eternal and pre-existing. The Holy Spirit is, the Essence of Jesus, Christ means "Anointed One", it is not a Surname. Jesus was Annointed with the Holy Spirit, in that Station Jesus was "Christ" the Son. The Holy Spirit is not flesh, Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that is Life.

Peter confirmed this, these passages are in 4 books, each worded differently, but this one says it in the best way.
Luke 9:18 to 20
18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Jesus was the "Annointed of God". Jesus was in reality the Holy Spirit, which eminates from God. (The Jews are still to accept this)

As such all of us, born of the human spirit have to be born again into Christ, the Holy Spirit and that is when it says death can not overtake us. The Bible also talks of more then One death, but that is another topic.

So the story of the resurrection to me is Metephor clothed in the experiences that the Disciples faced. They had to tell a world that Jesus as Christ was not dead, that to all that asked Christ would always be with us, and that Christ would return. How and why, 2000 years later that all wait for a flesh body, is lost in time, my guess it was man wanting to dominate over other men to control the way they think on these subjects, but luckily we now have a stronger scientific understanding to show us that we have to balance Faith in our understanding of all the worlds of God, both the material and spiritual worlds.

So I see that most likely the flesh of Jesus was buried by the Disciples, we know flesh is part of this world and returns to dust and we know the flesh amounts to nothing according to scripture, so it appears that the disciples buried Jesus out side the wall, in a tomb that was under that wall and was used by the Jews as a dump and around 300 years later the mother of Constantine located and built the Temple of the Holy Sepulcher over that location. There is a strong case that this is what happened. There is another archaeological expedition that think they found the final resting place of Jesus. In the end all this may be lost in time, but one thing we can be 100% assured of, the flesh body of Jesus will not be seen again.

Christ (Annointed Holy Spirit) is the First Christ is the Last Christ, the Alpha, the Omega, the Beginning and the End, we must look for that Spirit just as Jesus said.

Jesus said I will send another with a new name. The Comforter will have a New Name and will guide us to all Truth. We are to look for Christ in a New Messenger known by a different Name. By their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony

 

[pearl]

A hypothetical of the burial of Jesus according to historical critical method.
The normal procedure following the execution of an accursed criminal (Deut 21:23, Gal 3:13), would have been to dump the corpse into a common burial place reserved for malefactors. But in all four Gospels there is the person on Joseph of Arimathea and remembered because his prominent role and would have known where Jesus was buried. But how important to Christian faith in Jesus' resurrection is the empty tomb?
The Resurrection Appearances: 3. Faith in the Empty Tomb is an Empty Faith - The PostBarthian

 

[CG Didymus]

So the story of the resurrection to me is Metephor clothed in the experiences that the Disciples faced. They had to tell a world that Jesus as Christ was not dead, that to all that asked Christ would always be with us, and that Christ would return. How and why, 2000 years later that all wait for a flesh body, is lost in time, my guess it was man wanting to dominate over other men to control the way they think on these subjects, but luckily we now have a stronger scientific understanding to show us that we have to balance Faith in our understanding of all the worlds of God, both the material and spiritual worlds.

So I see that most likely the flesh of Jesus was buried by the Disciples, we know flesh is part of this world and returns to dust and we know the flesh amounts to nothing according to scripture, so it appears that the disciples buried Jesus out side the wall, in a tomb that was under that wall and was used by the Jews as a dump and around 300 years later the mother of Constantine located and built the Temple of the Holy Sepulcher over that location. There is a strong case that this is what happened. There is another archaeological expedition that think they found the final resting place of Jesus. In the end all this may be lost in time, but one thing we can be 100% assured of, the flesh body of Jesus will not be seen again.

I have no problem believing that the resurrection story isn't true. But that rips apart the gospel story. If the gospel writers continue the Jesus story as if the resurrection is real, then they are telling a lie... a made up story. Where, from how they tell the story, do you get that they were being metaphorical?

If one of the stories says that he was touched and has flesh and bone, then how to ignore that verse but take another verse that says the flesh amounts to nothing... literally? You're only using verses that support your Baha'i beliefs that Jesus' body is dead and gone and rotted away. Plus, the verse in Acts that say he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. Why would it say that about a metaphorical story? No, call it a lie, a made up hoax and I'm right with you. But Baha'is can't and don't go that far. They need the gospels to be sort of real. They need Jesus to be one of the "manifestations". They need Christianity to be a true, revealed religion from the same God that they believe in. But they need to make substantial changes to make the story fit into Baha'i beliefs.

Maybe what the Baha'i Faith teaches is true. But, maybe what born-again Christians say is true, and the gospel story is literally true... Jesus came back to life. Or, maybe it's all religious myth and story-telling. But, how did the writers of the gospel get away with the made up story? We can check and see what the early church leaders believed about the resurrection. But I'm thinking that they believed it really happened. So they took it a literal and not as some metaphorical story. And they probably knew the gospel writers and apostles. So they didn't think it was metaphor and they didn't believe it was a hoax. But if it was either one, then they were tricked into believing a lie.

And your theory about the disciples burying the body in a dump? So the Jewish leaders and the Romans let the disciples take the body down from the cross and take it away? And bury it in a dump? What about the tomb mentioned in the gospels? That was "metaphorical"? The woman and disciples going to the tomb was also "metaphorical"? These stories got written down and the Jews and Romans didn't care that those stories were saying that Jesus had come back to life? They wouldn't have rounded up the Church leaders and any of the disciples that were still alive and force them to tell them where the body of Jesus was buried? But no, they didn't. And if they did, those disciples that knew where the body was and knew that Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, kept it secret?

But another problem... The gospel stories get written and the people that were there at the time, they didn't say that all this stuff about Jesus appearing was not true? Or, if it was true, they would have been saying that "yes" indeed... Jesus did appear. Either way, people were probably still alive that could verify the story. So what is your "strong" case? Supposedly, nobody knows where the body is. Christians are told that Jesus had risen and ascended to heaven, then Constantine's mother finds the bones of Jesus? How did she know one set of bones from another?

Anyway, if you want Jesus dead and buried then fine. You've probably got a lot of people that agree with you. But then you come up with this Baha'i type of glorifying the spirit of Jesus. You downplay the flesh, the good for nothing flesh. It is the spirit. Well that's just wonderful... but kind of meaningless. Baha'is don't believe the NT story of the purpose and reason Jesus had to come and die. You know, all that stuff about Adam's fall and that there is a Satan. Baha'i don't believe that. So you can say all the wonderful things you want about Jesus, but it is not the same Jesus that a Bible and NT Christian believes in. It is a Jesus made up by the Baha'i Faith. And, I don't know, maybe you're exactly right. But maybe those literal-believing Christians are right. Or, maybe you're both wrong.