Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Truth isn't something that is foreign to either source. Slander is a corruption of the truth.
Repeating your denial adds nothing to your argument.
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Where's the devil?
- Thread starter Ebionite
- Start date
We are not discussing truth. We are discussing your assertion that there is a being known as the devil in the Hebrew scriptures. Stop moving the goalposts and prove it.
How many times can I say this?
The Hebrew scriptures are written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Diablos is a Greek word. There are no Greek words or Greek concepts in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is no devil as an evil being against the Creator concept. The devil is a Christian concept. If you believe there is such a being in Tanakh, point it out to me in a way that isn't a word game.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
By this logic there isn't any singular Devil. You're trying to claim that anyone who has ever lied is a devil. This means that there isn't any actual devil and that it simply describes anyone who slanders.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
In Hebrew, 'Satan' is written with only three letters: shin, tes, nun (final).
Shin (ש) is comprised of three letter vavs upright connected by a base at the bottom. In synthesis they denote the three major faculties of the body: the head, the heart, the reproductive organ. These correlate to thoughts/feelings/actions and generally is best described by the English word "expression". When someone expresses anything at all, it is done through a combination of what/how they: think, feel, act. Therefor ש most simply denotes "the expression" taken as anything a being "does" based on thought/feeling/action. In Jewish mysticism this is Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
Tes (ט) is a serpent: it is that which coils around and binds. The letter is essentially an archetypal form that depicts the general notion of binding. Two bodies orbiting one another would be an example of such a bind: the gravitational force of each affecting the other due to proximity. If sufficiently apart, the bodies would not be bound.
Nun (final) (ן) is describing the phenomena of something being in a state of ongoingness and/or acceleration which may or may not lead to perpetuity: for example when light approaches the event horizon of a sufficiently heavy object (such as a black hole), it becomes more and more drawn to it, eventually reaching the point (event horizon) wherein it can no longer escape the pull of gravity. Final nun captures the behavior within the spectrum of light from first being "influenced" by a gravitational force, to reaching a dense objects' event horizon wherefrom it can not escape anymore.
When we take the most basic synthesis of Satan:
ש - the expression
ט - of being bound
ן - in an ongoing state
we derive what "Satan" actually *is*: the expression of being bound in an ongoing state.
When you observe another being, whatever or however they are expressing themselves and/or something (shin) is a result of being (unaware / unconsciously) bound to/by something (tes) in an ongoing state if/when under the influence of what we now understand as "satan". The state is ongoing because it is a product of the bind itself: a false belief perhaps. Therefore, Satan does not have a form: is not an entity, a being, or anything to "fear". It is a word that describes the phenomena of someone's life becoming an expression of their bind (suffering) in an ongoing state. This is the only real satan that "exists" and is not even a thing.
In Islam there is no 'satan', there is however Iblis (Imagination). God delegated his vicegerent to represent him in this microcosm, this divine vicegerent being the “intellect”. When the “intellect” had taken up the vicegerency in this microcosm, all the angels of the microcosm prostrated before it, except “imagination”, which did not, refusing to bow, just as when Adam assumed the vicegerency in the macrocosm, all the angels prostrated to him, except Eblis, who did not. That is to say, all the powers, spiritual and physical, became obeisant and obedient to the spirit, except imagination, which refrained from doing so.
So, while the majority of belief systems make out the Devil to be their personal scape-goat/adversary, the western left hand path embraces the Devil as the Prince of Darkness, the non-natural soul, a creative source or First Principle/Platonic First Form. Satan is seen as an exemplary model of the human condition — mixed with good and evil. Blake depicted Satan as a symbol of vital creativity who struggles to be free of a coercively passive God.
The Prince of Darkness archetype is an Adversary and a trans‑cultural archetype existing long before Judaism and Christianity. Psychologically speaking, the Adversary is our Shadow Self, that which opposes and challenges us, when confronted by it, one either becomes consumed by it or one becomes stronger because of it. Satanism in this respect is about living one's life to best benefit one's self. Therefore indulgence can be sought but not to the point where it is detrimental to one's life.
Eliphas Levi tended to portray the Devil in a positive light — when Levi supported revolutionary change (mainly in the 1840s) Satan was the rebel, but later when Levi came to advocate the establishment of law and order Satan was portrayed as the model ruler.
Shin (ש) is comprised of three letter vavs upright connected by a base at the bottom. In synthesis they denote the three major faculties of the body: the head, the heart, the reproductive organ. These correlate to thoughts/feelings/actions and generally is best described by the English word "expression". When someone expresses anything at all, it is done through a combination of what/how they: think, feel, act. Therefor ש most simply denotes "the expression" taken as anything a being "does" based on thought/feeling/action. In Jewish mysticism this is Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
Tes (ט) is a serpent: it is that which coils around and binds. The letter is essentially an archetypal form that depicts the general notion of binding. Two bodies orbiting one another would be an example of such a bind: the gravitational force of each affecting the other due to proximity. If sufficiently apart, the bodies would not be bound.
Nun (final) (ן) is describing the phenomena of something being in a state of ongoingness and/or acceleration which may or may not lead to perpetuity: for example when light approaches the event horizon of a sufficiently heavy object (such as a black hole), it becomes more and more drawn to it, eventually reaching the point (event horizon) wherein it can no longer escape the pull of gravity. Final nun captures the behavior within the spectrum of light from first being "influenced" by a gravitational force, to reaching a dense objects' event horizon wherefrom it can not escape anymore.
When we take the most basic synthesis of Satan:
ש - the expression
ט - of being bound
ן - in an ongoing state
we derive what "Satan" actually *is*: the expression of being bound in an ongoing state.
When you observe another being, whatever or however they are expressing themselves and/or something (shin) is a result of being (unaware / unconsciously) bound to/by something (tes) in an ongoing state if/when under the influence of what we now understand as "satan". The state is ongoing because it is a product of the bind itself: a false belief perhaps. Therefore, Satan does not have a form: is not an entity, a being, or anything to "fear". It is a word that describes the phenomena of someone's life becoming an expression of their bind (suffering) in an ongoing state. This is the only real satan that "exists" and is not even a thing.
In Islam there is no 'satan', there is however Iblis (Imagination). God delegated his vicegerent to represent him in this microcosm, this divine vicegerent being the “intellect”. When the “intellect” had taken up the vicegerency in this microcosm, all the angels of the microcosm prostrated before it, except “imagination”, which did not, refusing to bow, just as when Adam assumed the vicegerency in the macrocosm, all the angels prostrated to him, except Eblis, who did not. That is to say, all the powers, spiritual and physical, became obeisant and obedient to the spirit, except imagination, which refrained from doing so.
So, while the majority of belief systems make out the Devil to be their personal scape-goat/adversary, the western left hand path embraces the Devil as the Prince of Darkness, the non-natural soul, a creative source or First Principle/Platonic First Form. Satan is seen as an exemplary model of the human condition — mixed with good and evil. Blake depicted Satan as a symbol of vital creativity who struggles to be free of a coercively passive God.
The Prince of Darkness archetype is an Adversary and a trans‑cultural archetype existing long before Judaism and Christianity. Psychologically speaking, the Adversary is our Shadow Self, that which opposes and challenges us, when confronted by it, one either becomes consumed by it or one becomes stronger because of it. Satanism in this respect is about living one's life to best benefit one's self. Therefore indulgence can be sought but not to the point where it is detrimental to one's life.
Eliphas Levi tended to portray the Devil in a positive light — when Levi supported revolutionary change (mainly in the 1840s) Satan was the rebel, but later when Levi came to advocate the establishment of law and order Satan was portrayed as the model ruler.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
The devil, as recorded by scripture (KJB), is presently on this earth (quarantined here, knowing that his time to work is almost up):
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
We are in a 'den of lions'.1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Yes, but there's one who gets a special mention.
No, not all lies are slander. I could lie by saying the world is flat when I know that it isn't, that's not slandering anyone.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan[shayṭān]. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.
Quran 2:168
Iblis is derived from diablos, meaning slanderer.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Of course, you are only defending your position. If we were you would have acknowledged the facts about the devil instead of arguing a straw-man fallacy.
devil (n.)
Old English deofol "a devil, a subordinate evil spirit afflicting humans;" also, in Christian theology, "the Devil, a powerful spirit of evil otherwise known as Satan," from Late Latin diabolus (also the source of Italian diavolo, French diable, Spanish diablo; German Teufel is Old High German tiufal, from Latin via Gothic diabaulus).
The Late Latin word is from Ecclesiastical Greek diabolos, which in Jewish and Christian use was "the Devil, Satan," and which in general use meant "accuser, slanderer" (thus it was a scriptural loan-translation of Hebrew satan; see Satan). It is an agent noun from Greek diaballein "to slander, attack," literally "to throw across," from dia "across, through" (see dia-) + ballein "to throw" (from PIE root *gwele- "to throw, reach").
devil | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
To slander someone is to bear false witness against them.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 20:16
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Understanding Arabic helps with the lousy translations found on the internet.
يٰٓاَيُّهَا النَّاسُ كُلُوۡا مِمَّا فِى الۡاَرۡضِ حَلٰلًا طَيِّبًا ۖ وَّلَا تَتَّبِعُوۡا خُطُوٰتِ الشَّيۡطٰنِؕ اِنَّهٗ لَـكُمۡ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِيۡنٌ
translates to: O people, all of them on the earth are a good solution. And do not follow the steps of the devil
There is no word Satan in Arabic, it is a Hebrew word meaning 'the adversary' (ha satan).
Iblis ابلیس translates as "despair" or "doubt"
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:44 YeG5210 areG2075 ofG1537 your fatherG3962 theG3588 devil,G1228 andG2532 theG3588 lustsG1939 of yourG5216 fatherG3962 ye willG2309 do.G4160 HeG1565 wasG2258 a murdererG443 fromG575 the beginning,G746 andG2532 abodeG2476 notG3756 inG1722 theG3588 truth,G225 becauseG3754 there isG2076 noG3756 truthG225 inG1722 him.G846 WhenG3752 he speakethG2980 a lie,G5579 he speakethG2980 ofG1537 his own:G2398 forG3754 he isG2076 a liar,G5583 andG2532 theG3588 fatherG3962 of it.G846
Joh 8:44 υμεις εκ πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουχ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτου
Joh 8:44 υμειςG4771 P-2NP εκG1537 PREP πατροςG3962 N-GSM τουG3588 T-GSM διαβολουG1228 A-GSM εστεG1510 V-PAI-2P καιG2532 CONJ ταςG3588 T-APF επιθυμιαςG1939 N-APF τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM υμωνG4771 P-2GP θελετεG2309 V-PAI-2P ποιεινG4160 V-PAN εκεινοςG1565 D-NSM ανθρωποκτονοςG443 A-NSM ηνG1510 V-IAI-3S απG575 PREP αρχηςG746 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF αληθειαG225 N-DSF ουχG3756 PRT-N εστηκενG2476 V-RAI-3S οτιG3754 CONJ ουκG3756 PRT-N εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S αληθειαG225 N-NSF ενG1722 PREP αυτωG846 P-DSM οτανG3752 CONJ λαληG2980 V-PAS-3S τοG3588 T-ASN ψευδοςG5579 N-ASN εκG1537 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPN ιδιωνG2398 A-GPN λαλειG2980 V-PAI-3S οτιG3754 CONJ ψευστηςG5583 N-NSM εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM πατηρG3962 N-NSM αυτουG846 P-GSM
tou is singular masculine
diabolou is also singular masculine
tou is singular masculine
patros is also singular masculine
ekeinos is singular masculine (and even means "that (specific) one (singular)".
autw is singular masculine (and refers to the "one", person, the "devil")
o is singular masculine (and is definite article)
pater is also singular masculine
The idea is not about "many" in this text, as spoken by Jesus, but a single individual under discussion., even the "father" of all lies. In other words the originator of all lies and all slanderers. Not a nebulous idea, but from a person, an individual, who originated the first lie, and every lie that was birthed from it.
Jesus is "the truth" (John 14:6).
Joh 8:44 YeG5210 areG2075 ofG1537 your fatherG3962 theG3588 devil,G1228 andG2532 theG3588 lustsG1939 of yourG5216 fatherG3962 ye willG2309 do.G4160 HeG1565 wasG2258 a murdererG443 fromG575 the beginning,G746 andG2532 abodeG2476 notG3756 inG1722 theG3588 truth,G225 becauseG3754 there isG2076 noG3756 truthG225 inG1722 him.G846 WhenG3752 he speakethG2980 a lie,G5579 he speakethG2980 ofG1537 his own:G2398 forG3754 he isG2076 a liar,G5583 andG2532 theG3588 fatherG3962 of it.G846
Joh 8:44 υμεις εκ πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουχ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτου
Joh 8:44 υμειςG4771 P-2NP εκG1537 PREP πατροςG3962 N-GSM τουG3588 T-GSM διαβολουG1228 A-GSM εστεG1510 V-PAI-2P καιG2532 CONJ ταςG3588 T-APF επιθυμιαςG1939 N-APF τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM υμωνG4771 P-2GP θελετεG2309 V-PAI-2P ποιεινG4160 V-PAN εκεινοςG1565 D-NSM ανθρωποκτονοςG443 A-NSM ηνG1510 V-IAI-3S απG575 PREP αρχηςG746 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF αληθειαG225 N-DSF ουχG3756 PRT-N εστηκενG2476 V-RAI-3S οτιG3754 CONJ ουκG3756 PRT-N εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S αληθειαG225 N-NSF ενG1722 PREP αυτωG846 P-DSM οτανG3752 CONJ λαληG2980 V-PAS-3S τοG3588 T-ASN ψευδοςG5579 N-ASN εκG1537 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPN ιδιωνG2398 A-GPN λαλειG2980 V-PAI-3S οτιG3754 CONJ ψευστηςG5583 N-NSM εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM πατηρG3962 N-NSM αυτουG846 P-GSM
tou is singular masculine
diabolou is also singular masculine
tou is singular masculine
patros is also singular masculine
ekeinos is singular masculine (and even means "that (specific) one (singular)".
autw is singular masculine (and refers to the "one", person, the "devil")
o is singular masculine (and is definite article)
pater is also singular masculine
The idea is not about "many" in this text, as spoken by Jesus, but a single individual under discussion., even the "father" of all lies. In other words the originator of all lies and all slanderers. Not a nebulous idea, but from a person, an individual, who originated the first lie, and every lie that was birthed from it.
Jesus is "the truth" (John 14:6).
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The Arabic shaytan probably has the same origin as the Hebrew shetan/satan.
The triliteral root shīn ṭā nūn (ش ط ن) occurs 88 times in the Quran as the nominal shayṭān (شَيْطَٰن).
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
In fact, the angel that appeared to Muhammad giving him qur'an was 'the devil'. Even Muhammad's own account of the incident in the cave Hira, states that he understood the encounter as demonic.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
That would probably be the case since Islam veritably derived from Judaism and Christianity. However, the devil i.e. Azazel, Iblis, Shaitan/Shaytan enjoys a complexity not found in the other two Abrahamic faiths.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The father of lies who was a murderer is probably a reference to the serpent [נחש] of Genesis 3:1
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The main difference is that the Quran makes no reference to the oral traditions of Judaism or to Paul or his doctrine.
And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided?
Quran 5:104
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Fine... then your claiming that anyone who has ever spoken an untruth about someone else is The Devil... which makes The Devil nothing more than a large number of fallible human beings.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Wait, wait, wait, what about Al Ma'idah 5:32, and “... if anyone killed a person, … it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. ...”?
Al Ma'idah 5:32 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -
“... if anyone killed a person … it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. ...”
For instance, Barack Hussein Obama stated [written script] in a speech:
"... The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind. The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism - it is an important part of promoting peace. ..." - TRANSCRIPT: Remarks of President Obama in Cairo
Well, that passage is often misquoted by Muslims [and others] and taken out of context, for the text actually reads [in full]:
Al Ma'idah 5:32 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -
“... Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after than many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land. …”
Clearly, the text is referring to something which 'Allah' supposedly gave to the Jews [“Children of Israel”, actually a Talmudic source: Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 37a] as a statute for them, and has nothing to do with how a Muslim acts, but instead, we would go to the very next ayah and see the statutes for the Muslim, and their conduct:
Al Ma'idah 5:33-35 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -
“... [v.33] The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in this Hereafter. [v.34] Except for those who (having fled away and then) and came back (as Muslims) with repentance before they fall into your power; in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [v.35] O you who believe! Do your duty to Allah and fear Him. And seek the means of approach to Him, and strive hard in His Cause (as much as you can), so that you may be successful.[1] ...”
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Some Muslims claim descent from Ishmael, son of Abraham, and in the Quran Abraham is recognized as a prophet.
Neither are supported by your source. The Messiah never identified as the Christ.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
You are in error:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk_24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk_24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.