Which "deity" is offering the best deal?

[-Peacemaker-]

Seems like you're saying that Charismatic Churches are the "real deal" Christians. Do you believe that their claims to speaking in tongues is Authentic? Does it match with what Acts and Paul's epistles say the event is supposed to be like?

I fail to see how the informal father-son relation communication between Jesus and the Father in any way whatsoever has to do with what I said. Please explain how that's not a total non-sequitur.

And you said that being a Christian involves listening for the Voice of God. As I asked, what does that mean exactly? Are you talking about hearing literal auditory voices? And what about "prophecy"? You say that these are things that "Christians" can expect, right?

I've listened for the voice of God and thought I'd heard something from time to time. It's never audible, it's more on the inside. Your favorite theologian Paul sums it nicely

Romans 8:26

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

 

[Shermana]

I've listened for the voice of God and thought I'd heard something from time to time. It's never audible, it's more on the inside. Your favorite theologian Paul sums it nicely

Romans 8:26

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

From what the text says, it seems God speaks to prophets primarily in their sleep, my guess is you may be hearing a deceased spirit or demon. Maybe even a Guardian Angel, which the text says all are given. What are some of the things you think you have heard? I strongly doubt God would attempt communication unless it was clear and intended to be heard directly and correctly. When the text says the people heard the voice of God, it was loud and booming to the point everyone could hear it. Otherwise, the Torah says the prophet will be spoken to in their dream.

As for Romans 8:26, I don't think that "groans" are talking about its communication with the person themselves but the interceding to God.

As for being "on the inside", most people who claim to hear voices do in fact claim that it's more of a "mind voice" like when you hear a song in your head, it's nonetheless "audible" to some degree or you wouldn't be hearing it at all.

 

[Alceste]

I would say none. I don't think I could believe in any religion unless I accepted Pascal's wager.

I'd rather live in the present rather than in a future that may not exist. Try and be good here, and be rewarded here. Value and cherish friends and family, and hope you get the same from them. That is the best reward I can hope for in this life - the only one we are sure about.

This! This is clearly the best deal. Are you a deity, by any chance?

 

[kerravon]

I have to go with Jesus on this one. Part of his package for his followers:

The forgiveness of all one's sins
The chance to know the perfect love of one's creator through an intimate relationship with him
The promise of provision in this life so that one need not worry about what they'll eat or wear.
The promise to spend eternity in paradise.

Here's what I don't want this thread to be about: I don't want it to be about trying to prove which "diety" is real or isn't real. Let's assume for the sake of argument that they're all real and that we're simply shopping for the best of the bunch.

I'd go with the one that throws in a 2 week Sydney vacation rent-free. You still have to be able to afford the airfare to get here, but not everything in life is free. Or as the Australian government likes to say - "why the **** aren't you here already?".

Change the World

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Horrible suffering is never a good thing. What it ultimately had the power to bring about -- the immortality and eternal life of man -- is more than "good."

I think this gets back to the question of responsibility. If I'm expected to worship the one who is responsible for creating that situation where the suffering was necessary, then I have a problem.

As an analogy, my opinion of someone who got burned herself saving an innocent person from a fire would change quite a bit if I found that she was also the arsonist who set the fire in the first place.

 

[Katzpur]

I've been wondering this for a while: what about something like iced tea or a frappuccino? Decaf tea and coffee is still okay, right? Wrong?

"The Word of Wisdom" (that's what we call our health code) prohibits "hot drinks," "strong drinks," and tobacco. We believe it was given to Joseph Smith by revelation back in 1838. Very shortly after it was given, Joseph interpreted "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee specifically. "Strong drinks" was interpreted to mean "alcoholic beverages." There has been no other official commentary on the matter since. Most LDS people assume that it is the caffeine in tea and coffee that was the reason they were prohibited. On the other hand, since we don't know that this is the case, quite a number of us drink caffeinated sodas and do so without feeling much guilt. They're probably not all that good for you, but they aren't actually prohibited. As for decaf tea and coffee, if they're completely lacking in caffeine, they might be acceptable. I know herbal teas are okay. Does that help?

 

[Father Heathen]

If you don't mind your caffeine in the form of Coke, you'd be okay. (I know, it's complicated. )

By "complicated" you mean arbitrary?

 

[Katzpur]

Do Mormons have to get out of bed in the morning?

Depends on whether they're retired or not.

 

[Katzpur]

By "complicated" you mean arbitrary?

Only with respect to caffeinated soft drinks.

 

[Father Heathen]

Only with respect to caffeinated soft drinks.

Maybe you all should try to find a similar loophole with "strong drinks". Hmm, maybe wine and beer = okay, while hard liquor = bad? There you go.

 

[Breathe]

"The Word of Wisdom" (that's what we call our health code) prohibits "hot drinks," "strong drinks," and tobacco. We believe it was given to Joseph Smith by revelation back in 1838. Very shortly after it was given, Joseph interpreted "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee specifically. "Strong drinks" was interpreted to mean "alcoholic beverages." There has been no other official commentary on the matter since. Most LDS people assume that it is the caffeine in tea and coffee that was the reason they were prohibited. On the other hand, since we don't know that this is the case, quite a number of us drink caffeinated sodas and do so without feeling much guilt. They're probably not all that good for you, but they aren't actually prohibited. As for decaf tea and coffee, if they're completely lacking in caffeine, they might be acceptable. I know herbal teas are okay. Does that help?

Lol, yeah it helps. Thanks!

 

[Alceste]

Maybe you all should try to find a similar loophole with "strong drinks". Hmm, maybe wine and beer = okay, while hard liquor = bad? There you go.

"no alcohol except gin and tonic". I'd go for that.

 

[Alceste]

"The Word of Wisdom" (that's what we call our health code) prohibits "hot drinks," "strong drinks," and tobacco. We believe it was given to Joseph Smith by revelation back in 1838. Very shortly after it was given, Joseph interpreted "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee specifically. "Strong drinks" was interpreted to mean "alcoholic beverages." There has been no other official commentary on the matter since. Most LDS people assume that it is the caffeine in tea and coffee that was the reason they were prohibited. On the other hand, since we don't know that this is the case, quite a number of us drink caffeinated sodas and do so without feeling much guilt. They're probably not all that good for you, but they aren't actually prohibited. As for decaf tea and coffee, if they're completely lacking in caffeine, they might be acceptable. I know herbal teas are okay. Does that help?

Could I have my coffee with a spoon and call it bean broth?

 

[Shermana]

"The Word of Wisdom" (that's what we call our health code) prohibits "hot drinks," "strong drinks," and tobacco. We believe it was given to Joseph Smith by revelation back in 1838. Very shortly after it was given, Joseph interpreted "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee specifically. "Strong drinks" was interpreted to mean "alcoholic beverages." There has been no other official commentary on the matter since. Most LDS people assume that it is the caffeine in tea and coffee that was the reason they were prohibited. On the other hand, since we don't know that this is the case, quite a number of us drink caffeinated sodas and do so without feeling much guilt. They're probably not all that good for you, but they aren't actually prohibited. As for decaf tea and coffee, if they're completely lacking in caffeine, they might be acceptable. I know herbal teas are okay. Does that help?

The Bible seems to make a clear distinction between wine and "Strong Drink", so is Wine acceptable? I have to ask if you believe Jesus turned the water into grape juice and was drinking water with the Publicans.

 

[Katzpur]

Could I have my coffee with a spoon and call it bean broth?

It would be alright with me. Would you like me to consult with the higher-ups?

 

[Katzpur]

The Bible seems to make a clear distinction between wine and "Strong Drink", so is Wine acceptable? I have to ask if you believe Jesus turned the water into grape juice and was drinking water with the Publicans.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask on this. It just about kills me to go into a nice restaurant and not have a glass of wine with my meal. Personally, I believe Jesus turned water into wine and drank wine, but no, wine is prohibited. Sorry.

 

[Shermana]

I'm probably the wrong person to ask on this. It just about kills me to go into a nice restaurant and not have a glass of wine with my meal. Personally, I believe Jesus turned water into wine and drank wine, but no, wine is prohibited. Sorry.

Common Mormon Misconceptions

According to this, there is in fact a distinction between "Mild drinks" (which are apparently allowed) and "Strong drinks" and JS did in fact drink alcohol on a number of occasions. Is this information in error? (Note: I believe this site is hosted by Finnish Mormons).

MISCONCEPTION 1. The Word of Wisdom teaches that alcohol is not good for consumption. Read the enitire Doctrine and Covenants 89, most people stop a fter D&C 89:5, "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good ..." If you were to read D&C 89:17 you may understand that Joseph Smith was only talking about "strong drinks",not "mild drinks". Mild drinks would be something like beer made from barley. If strong drinks have alcohol, mild drinks would also. Joseph Smith specifically singled out "strong drinks", not alcohol.
D&C 89:17; "Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all useful animals, and for all mild drinks, as also other grain."
MISCONCEPTION 2. Joseph Smith personally abhored alcohol. Joseph Smith drank alcohol for pleasure on a number of occassions as documented in the History of the Church.
On Wednesday May 3, 1843, Joseph "... drank a glass of wine with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England ..."
On the night that Joseph was murdered he drank again. The LDS Church records describe in detail that, "The gaurd immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the gaurds brought them into the jail .... Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph [Smith], who tasted, as also Brother Tylor ...." (History of the Church, vol. 6, pg. 616)
Some may argue that this was for sacrament so I will address this argument before it starts with John Taylor's statement. "Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent to revive us" (History of the Church, vol. 7, pg. 101)
In addition, Joseph Smith had a liquor license to distribute alcohol from his home. Take a look at History of the Church, vol. 6, pg. 111, "Section 1 - Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor [Joseph Smith] of the city is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time."

If that passage from History of the Church vol. 6 pg 616 can be verified, JS did in fact drink wine to "revive" in the Carthage jail and before that.

 

[Katzpur]

Common Mormon Misconceptions

According to this, there is in fact a distinction between "Mild drinks" (which are apparently allowed) and "Strong drinks" and JS did in fact drink alcohol on a number of occasions. Is this information in error? (Note: I believe this site is hosted by Finnish Mormons).
If that passage from History of the Church vol. 6 pg 616 can be verified, JS did in fact drink wine to "revive" in the Carthage jail and before that.

I'm aware that Joseph did have a drink of wine while in the Carthage jail. For a period of time, wine was served as part of the sacrament known by most Christians as "communion." It was later changed to water. The Word of Wisdom was originally given as "a word of wisdom," in other words, as counsel or advise. It was not given as a commandment. Most of the early members of the Church did drink alcoholic beverages from time to time and undoubtedly drank coffee and tea. It was not until a number of years later that the Church leadership really started focusing on the Word of Wisdom as something that would set Mormons apart from the rest of the population. Obedience to it became more and more critical as time went on, and today it's impossible to be admitted to the temple if you don't obey what is now seen as a commandment.

 

[Alceste]

It would be alright with me. Would you like me to consult with the higher-ups?

There might be one or two other sticking points.

 

[Katzpur]

There might be one or two other sticking points.

I know. That's why I'm not pushing the issue.