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Which existed first "something" or "nothing"?

KBC1963

Active Member
KBC1963 said:
Based on what exactly?
Based on my post #30 here --->
Consider the following sequence of (natural) causes/effects leading to object X:
1) X has been caused by X1 (1/2 hours ago)
2) X1 has been caused by X2 (1/2 + 1/4 hours ago)
3) X2 has been caused by X3 (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 hours ago)
4) X3 has been caused by X4 (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 hours ago)
And so on, ad infinitum. Here we have a Possible universe consisting of X and infinite Xn, all caused by an antecedent, unfolding in one hour, and without a first cause.

So you wish to assert the possibility of infinite regression in reality because you can perform some abstract mathematics in your mind? You have still not provided any reference to an experience from reality that would back an inference of infinite anything. Your entire foundation rests entirely on an abstract concept
.
By the way, are you aware of the infinite paths Integral of Feynman? Ciao - viole
again mathematics arising from abstract concepts of the mind. I can imagine my dog moving faster than light..... is this evidence for its existence in reality?

abstract
existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.

As I pointed out you cannot relate infinity to an actual experience from reality. The only ploy you have is to reference it from abstract thought and try to pass it off as something real.
I have just the site for you;

http://www.extremefinitism.com/blog/

Mainstream mathematics is based on a belief in the supernatural
.....Should we really accept that saying numbers exist in an abstraction is somehow a valid reason to bypass the need for any physical existence?....
....This belief (called mathematical platonism) is that with absolutely no physical manifestation at all, an infinite number of numbers (or possibly many infinities) just ‘exist’ in an abstract realm that has existed since the start of time.
http://www.extremefinitism.com/blog/mathematics-is-based-on-a-belief-in-the-supernatural/
 

KBC1963

Active Member
Go read the paper. The authors had to manipulate their data in order to fit into their numerology code.

OMG are you kidding me..... they said it in plain English you were able to read and the reviewers didn't catch it.... Ok here is what you do, write Elsevier and point out the specific error that you believe makes the paper garbage and see if they will retract it. Then we can place the possibility of intelligent beings other than ourselves back to ummmm.... right where its always been..... a possibility of our reality.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
Take a few biology classes at a university and you will learn about it. Your ignorance of information transportation in DNA is not an argument, merely your lack of education.

Or you could actually post what you believe specifically referenced about information transportation in dna makes a difference.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
Will ya look at that another ID friendly paper in a peer reviewed science journal

Space ethics to test directed panspermia
The hypothesis that Earth was intentionally seeded with life by a preceding extraterrestrial civilization is believed to be currently untestable. However, analysis of the situation where humans themselves embark on seeding other planetary systems motivated by survival and propagation of life reveals at least two ethical issues calling for specific solutions. Assuming that generally intelligence evolves ethically as it evolves technologically, the same considerations might be applied to test the hypothesis of directed panspermia: if life on Earth was seeded intentionally, the two ethical requirements are expected to be satisfied, what appears to be the case.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214552414000455
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Or you could actually post what you believe specifically referenced about information transportation in dna makes a difference.

No need since the data used was manipulated. The conclusion is already invalid. Beside you could look up this yourself but will probably not bother.

Will ya look at that another ID friendly paper in a peer reviewed science journal

Space ethics to test directed panspermia
The hypothesis that Earth was intentionally seeded with life by a preceding extraterrestrial civilization is believed to be currently untestable. However, analysis of the situation where humans themselves embark on seeding other planetary systems motivated by survival and propagation of life reveals at least two ethical issues calling for specific solutions. Assuming that generally intelligence evolves ethically as it evolves technologically, the same considerations might be applied to test the hypothesis of directed panspermia: if life on Earth was seeded intentionally, the two ethical requirements are expected to be satisfied, what appears to be the case.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214552414000455

Same paper with the same manipulation of data to fit a numerology code. Do take note both journals are published by the same company.

OMG are you kidding me..... they said it in plain English you were able to read and the reviewers didn't catch it.... Ok here is what you do, write Elsevier and point out the specific error that you believe makes the paper garbage and see if they will retract it. Then we can place the possibility of intelligent beings other than ourselves back to ummmm.... right where its always been..... a possibility of our reality.

No need. Since the paper is not published by any journal outside the parent origination and is not even a blip on real biological journals it is easy to conclude no one took it seriously. Again the same manipulation of data in which switching of atom, which is actually impossible, in order to create a fake proline amino acid to fit the 74/37 numerology code. AKA The authors made BS up to fit their presupposition of their 37 code.

Go look up Elsevier's reputation. They have been caught publishing articles in a journal which was not an actually academic journal but a magazine, fake journals, paid to publish papers, paid to publish fake journals, pay walls for open access, etc.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Will ya look at that another ID friendly paper in a peer reviewed science journal

Space ethics to test directed panspermia
The hypothesis that Earth was intentionally seeded with life by a preceding extraterrestrial civilization is believed to be currently untestable. However, analysis of the situation where humans themselves embark on seeding other planetary systems motivated by survival and propagation of life reveals at least two ethical issues calling for specific solutions. Assuming that generally intelligence evolves ethically as it evolves technologically, the same considerations might be applied to test the hypothesis of directed panspermia: if life on Earth was seeded intentionally, the two ethical requirements are expected to be satisfied, what appears to be the case.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214552414000455
Again, for those interested, attached is the entire paper.
 

Attachments

  • Space ethics to test directed panspermia.pdf
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
So you wish to assert the possibility of infinite regression in reality because you can perform some abstract mathematics in your mind? You have still not provided any reference to an experience from reality that would back an inference of infinite anything. Your entire foundation rests entirely on an abstract concept
.


When I scratch my nose, my hand crosses an infinity of points in space. Or do you think that it crosses a finite amount?
You could be right, as some theories of quantum gravity entail.

But do you have experience of this atomic and discrete structure of space?

Ciao

- viole
 

KBC1963

Active Member
When I scratch my nose, my hand crosses an infinity of points in space. Or do you think that it crosses a finite amount?
You could be right, as some theories of quantum gravity entail. But do you have experience of this atomic and discrete structure of space? Ciao- viole
Unfortunately, you don't cross an infinite amount of points because you can go from end to end and you have a start point. If your nose had infinite points then you would never reach the end of it. My kids have a cardboard box that flies them to the moon every weekend.
Note that the points in your imagination don't have any properties referential to size. So, again straight out of your imagination. You have never experienced anything in reality that is infinite.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
No need since the data used was manipulated. The conclusion is already invalid. Beside you could look up this yourself but will probably not bother.
I'm sure I could read the entire thing for myself and not draw the same conclusion you did which is why you need to provide a reference to the part you are assuming is relevant.

Same paper with the same manipulation of data to fit a numerology code. Do take note both journals are published by the same company.
Not the same paper. They do have more to say about their paper though;

The symmetrized code and the ideogram
So, the first thing to be found was the ideogram (as we call it) with all its symmetries and semiotics. The idea was simple: just separate whole and split codon families into two sets, sort contracted codon series according to their redundancy within those sets, and then arrange them using nucleon numbers of the amino acids that they encode. That’s all. As a result, you will get a structure with three strings composed of nucleotides from the same positions in codons. If you perform such systematization with the standard genetic code, you will find that this three-string structure is conspicuous in that its strings appear to be nearly symmetric. And you don’t have to be keenly observant to see that the symmetries are fully restored if TGA codon is reassigned from Stop to cysteine. In fact, you don’t even need to systematize the code like that – you can see that the degeneracy pattern of the standard code is nearly symmetric if you observe traditional tabular representation of the code as well, and the minimum action to restore the symmetry in degeneracy is the same reassignment of TGA from Stop to cysteine. After that, all symmetries in the ideogram become perfect. Even with this “symmetrization trick”, the reason for which was not clear at that moment yet, the ideogram with its symmetries, including the semantic structure of antonyms Stop→Stop→AAA→Start→Start in the middle string, appeared profound. And as it turned out, there was a slight hint that occasionally (e.g., in guinea pig liver) TGA codon is indeed recognized by Cys-tRNA. The results of those early experiments were not quite certain, but they helped to publish the description of the ideogram in the Journal of Theoretical Biology. And only three years later it was established that the version with TGA coding Cys instead of Stop is used in the nuclei of euplotid ciliates.
Then it was noticed that, besides displaying the symmetries, codons in the two parts of the ideogram are neatly interconnected with a simple inversion rule T↔G, A↔C. A bit later it was found that this feature was discovered long before by Russian physicist Yuri Rumer just after the code was cracked by biochemists. It was also found that categorization of amino acids using their nucleon numbers was introduced earlier by Hasegawa & Miyata. So, the procedure that uncovers the ideogram is nothing but a mere combination of the findings of Rumer and of Hasegawa & Miyata (it was much harder to trace all relevant publications, especially in the USSR, at the time when journals were published only on paper). The only extra additions were i) the assignment of zero nucleon number to stop-codons to treat them on equal footing with codons assigned to amino acids, and ii) consideration of contracted, or combined, codons (with ordinary codons you cannot get any unique structure, as there is a lot of ambiguity in positioning of synonymous codons; that’s not the case for the arithmetical part of the message, since codon positions are not important there).

Arithmetical patterns and the “protection key”

Nucleon numbers at that stage were used only for arranging the amino acids within redundancy sets to build the ideogram, not for adding them together to get nucleon sums. Besides, no distinction was made between standard blocks and side chains of amino acids, and therefore proline was considered “as is” (it is trivially checked that for the ideogram it makes no difference if a nucleon is transferred or not in proline).
The collection of canonical amino acids is quite diverse – all of them differ from each other physically and chemically. Nevertheless, they are all still alpha-amino acids. That implies, by definition, that they all have the same basic architecture comprising the standard block (universal for all amino acids) and side chains, or radicals (unique for each amino acid). Note that this distinction between universal and unique parts of molecules is purely formal and might be conceived of only by an intelligent “classifier”; natural processes treat given concrete molecule without ever “knowing” that this molecule belongs to some general class.
With this distinction in mind it was noticed that if nucleons are summed up separately for standard blocks and side chains in all amino acids, these sums appear precisely equal in the half of the ideogram with split codon families (1110 = 1110, see Fig. 7b in the paper), while the chain sum in the half with the whole families has 334 nucleons. However, performing the formal distinction between standard blocks and unique chains in all amino acids, you will notice that proline differs from the rest of them in that you have to “cross-cut” two bonds in it, rather than one (technically speaking, proline is not an amino acid, it is an imino acid, though this terminology seems to be obsolescent). That leaves its block with 73 nucleons, while in all other amino acids standard blocks have 74 nucleons. Strangely enough, if you “standardize” proline’s block by “transferring” one nucleon from its side chain (again, a purely formal operation), you get 333 nucleons in the whole half of the ideogram, in accordance with decimally distinctive balance in the other (split) half. Well, nothing special compared to the ideogram symmetries, though somewhat amusing and worth a note in a journal.

Hey look at that they even noted the transference of the nucleon from proline's side chain but apparently its nothing special since the symmetries occur without performing the purely formal operation.

Later on, when another arrangement of the code based on the first nucleotide type (purine or pyrimidine) was analyzed, it was noticed that the half with pyrimidines in first positions has 813 nucleons in blocks and 815 nucleons in chains. And again – if you standardize proline in the same way, the nucleon sums become precisely equal: 814=814. This was the moment when proline fell under suspicion. That triggered analysis of nucleon sums in other arrangements – decomposed code (Fig. 6 in the paper), the arrangement in Fig. 8b and Gamow’s sorting which revealed a whole bunch of decimally distinctive sums (Fig. 5) – everywhere the formal standardization of proline worked faultlessly (it is remarkable that without the standardized proline not a single nucleon balance of free amino acids was found in the code).

http://gencodesignal.info/summary-of-the-research/

Yup that was worth a note for sure.

Shad said:
Go look up Elsevier's reputation. They have been caught publishing articles in a journal which was not an actually academic journal but a magazine, fake journals, paid to publish papers, paid to publish fake journals, pay walls for open access, etc.

Are these crap too?
.....the results collected in Icarus paper were published sequentially in such biology-oriented periodicals as Journal of Theoretical Biology, Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres, BioSystems
http://gencodesignal.info/faq/#q19

How about Springer?

The Arithmetical Origin of the Genetic Code
Physics and chemistry are indifferent to the internal syntax of numerical language of arithmetic and, in particular, to the number system that this language employs. All they require from arithmetic is quantitative data. Absence of a privileged numerical system inherent to an object must therefore be a necessary condition of its natural origin. Recent research, however, has found an exception. That object is the universal genetic code. The genetic code turns out to be a syntactic structure of arithmetic, the result of unique summations that have been carried out by some primordial abacus at least three and half billion years ago. The decimal place-value numerical system with a zero conception was used for that arithmetic. It turned out that the zero sign governed the genetic code not only as an integral part of the decimal system, but also directly as an acting arithmetical symbol. Being non-material abstractions, all the zero, decimal syntax and unique summations can display an artificial nature of the genetic code. They refute traditional ideas about the stochastic origin of the genetic code. A new order in the genetic code hardly ever went through chemical evolution and, seemingly, originally appeared as pure information like arithmetic itself.
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6340-4_7
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I'm sure I could read the entire thing for myself and not draw the same conclusion you did which is why you need to provide a reference to the part you are assuming is relevant.


Not the same paper. They do have more to say about their paper though;

The symmetrized code and the ideogram
So, the first thing to be found was the ideogram (as we call it) with all its symmetries and semiotics. The idea was simple: just separate whole and split codon families into two sets, sort contracted codon series according to their redundancy within those sets, and then arrange them using nucleon numbers of the amino acids that they encode. That’s all. As a result, you will get a structure with three strings composed of nucleotides from the same positions in codons. If you perform such systematization with the standard genetic code, you will find that this three-string structure is conspicuous in that its strings appear to be nearly symmetric. And you don’t have to be keenly observant to see that the symmetries are fully restored if TGA codon is reassigned from Stop to cysteine. In fact, you don’t even need to systematize the code like that – you can see that the degeneracy pattern of the standard code is nearly symmetric if you observe traditional tabular representation of the code as well, and the minimum action to restore the symmetry in degeneracy is the same reassignment of TGA from Stop to cysteine. After that, all symmetries in the ideogram become perfect. Even with this “symmetrization trick”, the reason for which was not clear at that moment yet, the ideogram with its symmetries, including the semantic structure of antonyms Stop→Stop→AAA→Start→Start in the middle string, appeared profound. And as it turned out, there was a slight hint that occasionally (e.g., in guinea pig liver) TGA codon is indeed recognized by Cys-tRNA. The results of those early experiments were not quite certain, but they helped to publish the description of the ideogram in the Journal of Theoretical Biology. And only three years later it was established that the version with TGA coding Cys instead of Stop is used in the nuclei of euplotid ciliates.
Then it was noticed that, besides displaying the symmetries, codons in the two parts of the ideogram are neatly interconnected with a simple inversion rule T↔G, A↔C. A bit later it was found that this feature was discovered long before by Russian physicist Yuri Rumer just after the code was cracked by biochemists. It was also found that categorization of amino acids using their nucleon numbers was introduced earlier by Hasegawa & Miyata. So, the procedure that uncovers the ideogram is nothing but a mere combination of the findings of Rumer and of Hasegawa & Miyata (it was much harder to trace all relevant publications, especially in the USSR, at the time when journals were published only on paper). The only extra additions were i) the assignment of zero nucleon number to stop-codons to treat them on equal footing with codons assigned to amino acids, and ii) consideration of contracted, or combined, codons (with ordinary codons you cannot get any unique structure, as there is a lot of ambiguity in positioning of synonymous codons; that’s not the case for the arithmetical part of the message, since codon positions are not important there).

Which is merely rephrasing the previous paper and expanding upon it. In the end it says the exactly the same thing.

"To make description of the signal in the Icarus paper as concise as possible we provided some a posteriori information prior to Results section. Though we explicitly wrote that the reason for that is convenience in data presentation, some readers tend to think that it is was our a priori desire to find, e.g., decimal notation and that’s why we found it. Here we outline the research in its chronological order and describe how the protection key, decimalism and symmetrized code version emerged during the analysis. Some points are described in greater detail here than in the paper. The following text is supposed to be read after the paper."


Arithmetical patterns and the “protection key”

The same manipulation of data to fit their numerology code. The fact that were was no distinction made means they ignored that there is a distinction. They ignored what was not convenient to their presupposition. their hand-waving is irreverent to the fact that proline has 73 atoms in the standard block. They had to create a proline to fit their code. Proline is an amino-acid, this is a fact. They can call it whatever they want this does not change this fact. Thanks for more evidence that they had to manipulate data to get the results they want. They had to use obsolete terms to get the result they wanted. More so by putting forward it is not an amino acid they just refuted their own model in which it is included among amino acids. Their own figures include proline among amino acid, now it is not due to a shift in terminology thus refuting their own figures.

Hey look at that they even noted the transference of the nucleon from proline's side chain but apparently its nothing special since the symmetries occur without performing the purely formal operation.

Wrong as the symmetry vanishes without the transfer they created to fit their code. Proline has 73 atoms in the standard block hence there is no symmetry instead they created it.

Later on, when another arrangement of the code based on the first nucleotide type (purine or pyrimidine) was analyzed, it was noticed that the half with pyrimidines in first positions has 813 nucleons in blocks and 815 nucleons in chains. And again – if you standardize proline in the same way, the nucleon sums become
precisely equal: 814=814. This was the moment when proline fell under suspicion. That triggered analysis of nucleon sums in other arrangements – decomposed code (Fig. 6 in the paper), the arrangement in Fig. 8b and Gamow’s sorting which revealed a whole bunch of decimally distinctive sums (Fig. 5) – everywhere the formal standardization of proline worked faultlessly (it is remarkable that without the standardized proline not a single nucleon balance of free amino acids was found in the code).
http://gencodesignal.info/summary-of-the-research/

They admit to standardizing proline to fit their code. Reading comprehension must be lost on you. Again to fit their code which is clearly stated above.

Are these crap too?
.....the results collected in Icarus paper were published sequentially in such biology-oriented periodicals as Journal of Theoretical Biology, Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres, BioSystems
http://gencodesignal.info/faq/#q19
http://gencodesignal.info/faq/#q19

Do take note that each journal is published by the same company and is based upon the Icarus paper. Hence these secondary publications were not reviews of the paper but publishing it. There is a difference.

[/quote]How about Springer?
[/QUOTE]

Speculation. Key phase

" A new order in the genetic code hardly ever went through chemical evolution and, seemingly, originally appeared as pure information like arithmetic itself."

Seemingly does not mean factual but appearance of.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seeming

Besides if one reduce biology to math then this will happen. It happens with the Bible code, it happens with the Quran code. It happens when one reduces anything to math. Math which the authors manipulated.

Sorry I had to cut out parts of the quote due to character limits per post.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Unfortunately, you don't cross an infinite amount of points because you can go from end to end and you have a start point. If your nose had infinite points then you would never reach the end of it.

So, do you really think to have proved that spacetime is discreet? That is, that there is a minimal distance between two different points in space that cannot possibly accomodate a point in the middle of them? Or that spacetime has an atomic structure?

I really wonder why you do not submit this results to the scientific community. You could become very famous by showing that some assumptions of quantum gravity are true via a simple experiment, like scratching ones nose, which is also vastly less expensive than testing these things in a collider as big as the galaxy :)

Ciao

- viole
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I wonder.... why would an ID advocate quote a paper from a science journal that is promoting that some previous intelligence has left a sign of intelligent action in our dna? hmmmm yes that is quite strange isn't it, seeing as how ID isn't real science and all? I wonder how such a paper made it that far.

"What's most notable about this paper is the similarity in design reasoning between the authors and the more familiar advocates of intelligent design theory. No appeals to religion or religious texts; no identifying the designer; just logical reasoning from effect to sufficient cause. The authors even applied the "design filter" by considering chance and natural law, including natural selection, before inferring design.
If Darwinists want to go on equating intelligent design with creationism, they will now have to take on the very secular journal Icarus."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/a_wow_signal_of069941.html


It is interesting, that many atheists would accept the simplest mathematical sequence drifting through the cosmos as 'wow' evidence of intelligence- what other explanation could there be?!

Yet the vast array of universal constants, mathematics, algorithms operating the universe and life itself, can be safely assumed, by default, to have blundered into existence for no particular reason.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Yet the vast array of universal constants, mathematics, algorithms operating the universe and life itself, can be safely assumed, by default, to have blundered into existence for no particular reason.
And yet Christian theists have no problem accepting that their god "blundered into existence", sorry "has always existed" for no particular reason.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
And yet Christian theists have no problem accepting that their god "blundered into existence", sorry "has always existed" for no particular reason.

He has reason, purpose, that's the whole point of intelligent design versus sheer fluke.

'always existed for no reason' used to be the popular atheist stance before we discovered that the universe did in fact begin in a specific creation event.

Since that included time itself, yes, any creator intelligent or not, transcends time as we know it- that's a wash.

What's not the same, is the capacity of design v fluke to create the world you see around you.
 
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