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Which existed first "something" or "nothing"?

What do you think Natural Selection is, Russell?

Natural Selection is all "adapting" to the environment they lived in.

A change in geographical terrain or climate, the availability or scarcity of food, water or other resources, will require species to adapt to this changing condition, passing on the right genes to the next offspring or descendants, OR not adapt and future generations will die out.

The biological change don't need to be so completely different.

Darwin visited the Galápagos Islands, and seen at first hand, different subspecies on two different islands that are only a mile or two apart. And the most profound differences between the subspecies are that of the tortoises.

On one island (eg Santa Cruz), in which the island was rich in green vegetation and humid condition, all within reach by a much smaller tortoises with dome-shaped shells, short necks and limbs.

330px-Gigantic_Turtle_on_the_Island_of_Santa_Cruz_in_the_Galapagos.JPG

But on the other island(s), in which is more harsher in both terrain and dryer climate, vegetation are different, and higher off the ground. The giant tortoises here have saddle-shells, and much longer necks and legs than their smaller cousins. The shape of their shells allowed them to crank their neck vertically, and stretch their legs, so that they can feed off leaves that were higher off the ground.

330px-GalapagosTortoiseTourists.jpg

That's evolution, or more precisely Natural Selection, at work.

Another good example would be bears. Why do the southern bears, eg brown bears, black bears, grizzly bears have different coats than the polar bears? Why do these bears hibernate but the polar bears don't? Different climates and geographical terrains, would require each adapting to their conditions and thrive. The polar bear have more insulating coat and fat in their bodies, which enable to hunt in the arctic region and swim in icy sea, something their southern cousins couldn't do. Somewhere in the past, the polar bears diverge from the bear species of the south. Again, Natural Selection at work.

With the virus example, I gave you earlier. That's partly Mutation and partly Natural Selection.

Mutation and Natural Selection are not the only mechanisms in evolution.

Another one is Gene Flow, in which the environment is not a factor. The change occurred when a new population breed with the existing population, producing offspring that are different from both, because the new generation inherited traits from both populations.

I forgot what Genetic Drift and Genetic Hitchhiking are. Don't forget I am not a biologist, so excuse me if I cannot define these two from the top of my head.

Veritable limited changes "adaptation" I have no issue with. The is all together different than information itself.
Nothing that crawled out of the ocean grow legs with the genetic information to build them in the first place. No creature took to the skies without already having the information to build wings.
Information=intelligence. There can be no information in species without sn intelligent creator putting it there. Plain and simple.

Science may have some guesses as to where information comes from but by your self proclaimed standard of proof, if purely speculation and unverifiable.

The limits of adaptation have long and clearly been documented.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against evolution. I'm just showing you your clear bias as it pertains evolution vs Russells work which you so easy label speculation and toss aside without even looking at the evidence he has put forth.
Russells concept of the universe is more thorough and complete than the theory of evolution in my op.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No creature took to the skies without already having the information to build wings.
And yet, chickens, ostriches, emus, lyre birds, peacocks and penguins are birds, have wings, and yet none of them can fly. Clearly having wings don't give them the ability to fly.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Russells concept of the universe is more thorough and complete than the theory of evolution in my op.
That because evolution is biology and the study of universe is not biology, but astronomy, astrophysics and cosmology. What happen on Earth or in our Solar System, play a very insignificant part in the Milky Way and even less so than in the universe.

But downside, you can't compare evolution and universe, because they are not one and the same.

That you don't see the distinction is sad.

And you are wrong, WR and the real Walter Russell is wrong. We know more of biology and of evolution in particular, and we have made great stride because of that.

The universe, on the other hand, we have only just begun to learn things about the universe, and that's just a fraction of what we know. While the space telescopes have uncovered some mystery, it is still limited, and manned space exploration have only reached the moon.

What Russell talk of, when mixing science (light and electromagnetism) and god (or creator), is based more on circular reasoning than evidences. He presented no evidences to support his claim, when talking of this light or magnetism.

Why do you think is that, WR? Why can't he present no evidences for what he claimed?

The reason being, he is at, a philosopher, not a scientist.

Philosophers have the tendencies to rely solely on reasoning, and each bloody one of them think they are right, without anything to verify what they have to say. If they have to, they would use pseudoscience to prove their points. Instead of admitting that he don't know god, personal or otherwise, he tried to say the power of God can be found in light (or more precisely electromagnetism).

That's circular reasoning and pseudoscience claptrap.

That's why I don't highly of most philosophers.

Veritable limited changes "adaptation" I have no issue with. The is all together different than information itself.
Nothing that crawled out of the ocean grow legs with the genetic information to build them in the first place. No creature took to the skies without already having the information to build wings.
Information=intelligence. There can be no information in species without sn intelligent creator putting it there. Plain and simple.

Science may have some guesses as to where information comes from but by your self proclaimed standard of proof, if purely speculation and unverifiable.

The limits of adaptation have long and clearly been documented.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against evolution. I'm just showing you your clear bias as it pertains evolution vs Russells work which you so easy label speculation and toss aside without even looking at the evidence he has put forth.

Whether the changes is small or limited, or big or very profound, and whether the change occurs a generation or three later, or occurs 100s or 1000s of generation later, it is all evolution.

You are nit-picking what evolution is. And there lies more of your ignorance.

And in all, the changes occur naturally, without the needs of this silly superstition that required no aid from some non-existence Designer or Creator.

What you are doing is similar to believing in fairytale, that if there is rainbow in the sky, then there are must be leprechaun on the other side of rain with a cauldron full of gold. Your Intelligent Designer is based on make-believe superstition, nothing more, nothing less.

You want me to believe what you have you claim to be real, but you have to do far better giving me philosophical BS from Russell that have no evidences and no basis in reality. Do you think I really give a crap about Russell being your hero or idol?

In order for there to be Design in nature, then showed me evidences or your nonsense of "irrefutable proof" of this Designer's or Creator's existence.

As far I have seen, I have squat of your irrefutable proof. I hated the word proof, because in science it has little to do with science, and there is nothing irrefutable.

No, don't bother. I haven't see any evidences from you, just you and your wishful-thinking and circular argument. I will be waiting here till I am old and grey before you present anything that resemble evidences for the existence of Designer.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Reguardless, no genetic info for wings means no wings. Simple as that.
The genetic info for wings is just a modification of the info for legs. What happened was simply that the info for legs was copied twice by a copying error with some small changes and you ended up with two almost similar gene sequences producing an animal with both legs and wings. No "intelligent creator" of wings necessary. See http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/hoxgenes/
 
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That because evolution is biology and the study of universe is not biology, but astronomy, astrophysics and cosmology. What happen on Earth or in our Solar System, play a very insignificant part in the Milky Way and even less so than in the universe.

But downside, you can't compare evolution and universe, because they are not one and the same.

That you don't see the distinction is sad.

And you are wrong, WR and the real Walter Russell is wrong. We know more of biology and of evolution in particular, and we have made great stride because of that.

The universe, on the other hand, we have only just begun to learn things about the universe, and that's just a fraction of what we know. While the space telescopes have uncovered some mystery, it is still limited, and manned space exploration have only reached the moon.

What Russell talk of, when mixing science (light and electromagnetism) and god (or creator), is based more on circular reasoning than evidences. He presented no evidences to support his claim, when talking of this light or magnetism.

Why do you think is that, WR? Why can't he present no evidences for what he claimed?

The reason being, he is at, a philosopher, not a scientist.

Philosophers have the tendencies to rely solely on reasoning, and each bloody one of them think they are right, without anything to verify what they have to say. If they have to, they would use pseudoscience to prove their points. Instead of admitting that he don't know god, personal or otherwise, he tried to say the power of God can be found in light (or more precisely electromagnetism).

That's circular reasoning and pseudoscience claptrap.

That's why I don't highly of most philosophers.



Whether the changes is small or limited, or big or very profound, and whether the change occurs a generation or three later, or occurs 100s or 1000s of generation later, it is all evolution.

You are nit-picking what evolution is. And there lies more of your ignorance.

And in all, the changes occur naturally, without the needs of this silly superstition that required no aid from some non-existence Designer or Creator.

What you are doing is similar to believing in fairytale, that if there is rainbow in the sky, then there are must be leprechaun on the other side of rain with a cauldron full of gold. Your Intelligent Designer is based on make-believe superstition, nothing more, nothing less.

You want me to believe what you have you claim to be real, but you have to do far better giving me philosophical BS from Russell that have no evidences and no basis in reality. Do you think I really give a crap about Russell being your hero or idol?

In order for there to be Design in nature, then showed me evidences or your nonsense of "irrefutable proof" of this Designer's or Creator's existence.

As far I have seen, I have squat of your irrefutable proof. I hated the word proof, because in science it has little to do with science, and there is nothing irrefutable.

No, don't bother. I haven't see any evidences from you, just you and your wishful-thinking and circular argument. I will be waiting here till I am old and grey before you present anything that resemble evidences for the existence of Designer.

You continue to belittle Russells scientific achievements.
His 1926 copyrighted periodic table predicted the existence of deuterium and tritium as well as all transuranium elements such as plutonium and neptunium.
1927 He transmuted water into 17 different substances.
1958-61 worked with Norad on projects focussing on pulling energy from space.

His books, Atomic Suicide, Secret of Light and A Bew Concept of the Universe are very much scientically based books. Much of his claims can be tested.
In addition to being a sculpturer, painter, architect, and writer. He was a scientist...and his accomplishments in science are self evident of that.
The atom itself is a micro universe. You understand both if you can understand one.

Is he my Idol?? No. Role model? Yes, sorry my role models aren't found on the cover of a box of Wheaties...

Russell cleary had a deeper understanding of the working of the universe than you do of the difference between evolution and adaptation so i'll leave you with your illusions.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Russell cleary had a deeper understanding of the working of the universe than you do of the difference between evolution and adaptation so i'll leave you with your illusions.
Did he know anything about genetics and evolution? You didn't mention those in your post...
 
The genetic info for wings is just a modification of the info for legs. What happened was simply that the info for legs was copied twice by a copying error with some small changes and you ended up with two almost similar gene sequences producing an animal with both legs and wings. No "intelligent creator" of wings necessary. See http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/hoxgenes/

No i'm sorry...gene information doesn't work that way and what you are describing is a mutation.
There are tens of decades of research in mutations from plants to fruit flies etc... Mutations aren't beneficial and can only be maintained by man in a controlled environment. When man stops interferring the plant, fruit fly etc.. Return to its natural state.

I'm not going to participate in a drawn out evolution debate. As I said earlier. I'm not opposed to evolution.
I'm making the point that it has not been verified undisputedly and that Russells work can be just as well understood just hy applying his principles. ie converting air into hydrogen to power automobiles, transmuting elements etc... Is all based on his understanding of how the universe works.
 
Did he know anything about genetics and evolution? You didn't mention those in your post...

Russell didn't make a claim reguarding evolution. I was simply making a point that much of what Russell has put forth can be tested in a way to provide as much evidence as we have to establish evolution as fact.

The statement was in response to gnosics comment of irrefutable proof needed in order for him/her to take Russell seriously while holding evolution as fact without irrefutable proof.
Just pointing out the bias
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No i'm sorry...gene information doesn't work that way and what you are describing is a mutation.
Did you actually read the link? Here is a quote: "And the genetic programs themselves can be modified (through changes in the “leg” or “antenna” genes) to build structures that are a little different. For instance, the “wing” program didn’t come about from scratch—it’s simply a modified “leg” program." http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/hoxgenes/ Just stop reading this Russell and learn about genetics instead from people who know their stuff.
There are tens of decades of research in mutations from plants to fruit flies etc... Mutations aren't beneficial and can only be maintained by man in a controlled environment. When man stops interferring the plant, fruit fly etc.. Return to its natural state.
Except those who are stable.

"Generally, genetic mutations are not a problem, and can be pruned out if undesirable; however, many sports will die out or revert back to their original form of their own accord.

"Some sports [mutations] are stable and may be of interest to nurseries who actively seek out new plants." My emphasis. https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=259
 
Did you actually read the link? Here is a quote: "And the genetic programs themselves can be modified (through changes in the “leg” or “antenna” genes) to build structures that are a little different. For instance, the “wing” program didn’t come about from scratch—it’s simply a modified “leg” program." http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/hoxgenes/ Just stop reading this Russell and learn about genetics instead from people who know their stuff.

No mutations created in laboratories don't stick. Left alone nature corrects the mutation.

The Hox gene acts as a circuit breaker, turning on or off existing genes. It doesn't create anything that wasn't already there.

Dogs are a great example as too how far you can push variations but their still dogs.

I get the idea of chemicals changing gene information. Science has explained the process but nothing more than adaptation can be solidly proven. Hmmm... Well Russell has been just as thorough in his explanation of the two way universe and has documented experiments to prove the concept works. So what makes one scientic fact and the other pseudoscience???
It may be due to him not forking over big bucks to one of ivy league schools and then have the audacity to smarter than those who did.
In addition to that, Russells work can give us the ability to convert air into hydrogen which could run a car with no need to stop and fill a tank.
I guess that would hurt the deep pockets of some powerful ppl.
Knowing whether or not I was created human or evolved to be one matters not to me.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
The Hox gene acts as a circuit breaker, turning on or off existing genes. It doesn't create anything that wasn't already there.
Once again: You have a gene sequence coding for legs, it gets duplicated and you have two gene sequences coding for legs, one of them changes and you have a gene sequence coding for legs and one coding for wings. Are you with me so far? You said that "No creature took to the skies without already having the information to build wings." Correct. No intelligent creator required to put the wing gene sequence there just a copying error of the leg gene sequence and a modification of the extra copy.
 
Once again: You have a gene sequence coding for legs, it gets duplicated and you have two gene sequences coding for legs, one of them changes and you have a gene sequence coding for legs and one coding for wings. Are you with me so far? You said that "No creature took to the skies without already having the information to build wings." Correct. No intelligent creator required to put the wing gene sequence there just a copying error of the leg gene sequence and a modification of the extra copy.

Im sorry but the bones of wings are light and delicate with a different joint structure to support wing movement. Then you add in the feathers, and the overall change in body composition since now the species walks on 2 legs instead of 4. Are you with me so far??
And you credit all this to a coding error?? Lol give me a break.

Wings are precisely designed. Not the product of coding error.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Im sorry but the bones of wings are light and delicate with a different joint structure to support wing movement. Then you add in the feathers, and the overall change in body composition since now the species walks on 2 legs instead of 4. Are you with me so far??
And you credit all this to a coding error?? Lol give me a break.

Wings are precisely designed. Not the product of coding error.
LOL I explained as simply as I could this way so you would understand the principle of how some new gene sequences are produced. Of course it's a heck of a lot more complicated than that... :)
 
LOL I explained as simply as I could this way so you would understand the principle of how some new gene sequences are produced. Of course it's a heck of a lot more complicated than that... :)

I agree its very complicated. So much so that it can't happen by accident.
I doubt no matter how many times i trip and drop my paint tray it wont result in the Mona Lisa on my floor ;)
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I agree its very complicated. So much so that it can't happen by accident.
I doubt no matter how many times i trip and drop my paint tray it wont result in the Mona Lisa on my floor ;)
There are about 37 trillion cells in the human body and 7 billion billion billion atoms. Would you like to calculate the chances of those combining to become you by accident? Surely somebody must have put you together? After all, you're much too complicated to have evolved...
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I agree its very complicated. So much so that it can't happen by accident.
I doubt no matter how many times i trip and drop my paint tray it wont result in the Mona Lisa on my floor ;)
Somebody might buy the result for a lot of money and call it a masterpiece. And when they ask you about how it came about you could say "by accident..." and they would go "impossible"!
 
There are about 37 trillion cells in the human body and 7 billion billion billion atoms. Would you like to calculate the chances of those combining to become you by accident? Surely somebody must have put you together? After all, you're much too complicated to have evolved...

Just to be on record, I'm not opposed to the theory of evolution directed by a conscious force but i'm not convinced either and im ok with that.
I'm more concerned with where we're going than where we come from.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Just to be on record, I'm not opposed to the theory of evolution directed by a conscious force but i'm not convinced either and im ok with that.
I'm more concerned with where we're going than where we come from.

For Darwin, any evolution that had to be helped over the jumps by God was no evolution at all. It made a nonsense of the central point of evolution. (Dawkins)
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
or none of them unless the ONE who created/evolved them communicates and informs us which one.
Topic open for Theists and Atheists alike.

Regards
If you can establish that there is a something that created (almost) everything, then there was something first. If you cannot establish this scientifically, then the answer is "we do not know".
And yet, where did this something that created everything else come from?????? If it is eternal then so could everything else............
 
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