Which Old Testament Prophecy Fulfills Luke 24:46-47

[Brickjectivity]

In isolation, nothing Jesus did was of note, except perhaps his miracles which the Pharisees could not deny, so they attributed them to Beelzebub. They even had plans to kill Lazarus too, as the word spread about his resurrection. This was their response to everything.....silence the messengers if they make us look bad.

It is what Jesus 'fulfilled' collectively that is impressive.....which included things he could not have organized himself...his lineage, his tribe, the place of his birth and the treatment he received at the hands of his persecutors who already had a disgraceful record of disobedience and rejection of God's prophets sent to correct them. (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus life imitates the centuries of the Jews. That's plot. Believing on him is a matter of action doing what he says, because we believe its right. It is not a matter of believing arguments and therefore being forced by fear of destruction to grit our teeth and be good. That would be an empty, pointless life, so I am glad to find out that Matthew has not supported a bunch of wonders and signs to to coerce me.

Exactly......so we had to have a way to test them out.....Jesus said we had to examine their "fruitage" so as to be convinced of their words, their actions had to back them up. But what do we find? Talk is cheap....anyone can claim to be anything they want and some gullible fool will hang off their every word. But look at what they do...what they are and see if there is hypocrisy. Its not hard then to spot the fraudsters.

Counterfeits can be spotted easily...not by knowing what every counterfeit looks like...but by knowing what the original looks like and comparing. When we compare what Jesus taught to what the religious leaders of all the fragmented churches of Christendom teach, we can soon see who the frauds are.....even in just that one area that I covered in post #27. Who is obedient to the Christ and his apostles? Those who shed blood for their governments or their religion, or those who would rather go to prison for refusing to break Christ's command?

Every leader in the scriptures has bad fruit. They all do. Moses has anger which keeps him out of the Land. The kings are all a mistake. Female leaders, too, they are a mistake. Each of Jesus twelve apostles is a misfit, and as a group they are motley. Jesus himself refuses to lead Israel and instead leaves.

Matthew 23:9-11.....Jesus said....
"Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister."

1 Corinthians 1:25-28 fills out the details.....
"For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

There is the whole story about the Kingdom right there in those verses....do people know what you are reading there?
Christ has been appointed as King of God's Kingdom by his Father with all the authority that goes with that. Revelation 12:7-10 is the bestowing of that authority with winning a war in heaven and the eviction of satan and his hordes from ever going back there again....but now they will create havoc here on the earth until it comes time for them to enter the abyss for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:1-3)

Whist satan and his minions are out of action, Jesus set about undoing all the works of the devil here on Earth by bringing Kingdom rule to mankind and ridding them of the sin they inherited from Adam. The above verses are about his rulership and what it will accomplish in order to give mankind back the life that was taken from them by a rebellious trio back in Eden. (Revelation 21:2-4) The chief culprit will be languishing in a prison for 1,000 years, ensuring plenty of time for the resurrection to take place and education of all those whom Jesus has called from their tombs. (John 5:28-29)

Once Jesus has accomplished all that God commanded him to do, by means of the Kingdom, all will return to the way things were in Eden, before the rebellion. Jesus then hands the rulership back to his Father, so God will then be Earth's only King with all intelligent creation subject to him....including his firstborn Son.

I'm not here to attack your faith. These are all things you believe and are dear to you. I see them very differently, and I explain them very differently. As I said before I believe Satan to be a word which ought to be translated 'Enemy' rather than transliterated. People are taken over by our Sin which is the serpent and that which causes us all to be accused of being monstrosities. I don't see any fallen angel and don't see how angels could be corrupted, either. The internals of a person are at war, and we want to do good but feel like doing either nothing or something bad. Thus we are a mixture of good things and bad things, like 25 cent toy vending machines.

Jesus' true disciples would be distinguishable from the 'weedy' imitation Christians by their beliefs and conduct.
They are there in the world growing alongside the weeds and as the time for the harvest approaches, we can see a clear distinction. Jesus said that "the good news of the kingdom" would be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come". (Matthew 24:14)
So who are doing this difficult work in all the nations, in the face of stiff opposition, searching for the worthy ones? (Matthew 10:11-14; John 15:18-21)

Again I think that when Jesus tells the twelve to preach everywhere he is speaking to them as Jews and that they do preach to all of the Jewish nations. Mark 16 records that they preach everywhere, completing that mission. There is a church in India which claims it was one of these original far flung synagogues visited by one of the twelve. Twelve nations -- twelve apostles to those nations, the nations of the earth. Then later come Paul and Barnabas and catholics and JW's etc etc.

That is giving glory to God in the name of Jesus Christ....who, himself gave his God all the glory. (Philippians 2:9-11) If the Jews fail to accept Jesus as Messiah, then they can have no relationship with the Father. Are they wondering why there is no peace in their homeland? Who have they allied themselves with?

I want to take that seriously, however for me there is no fallen angel in this equation. I also see no limitations about who may have a relationship with the Father. It was the outsiders, us, who were unconnected from Jewish ways who adopted their ways. Israel today is interesting since it is two nations. One nation is secular and one is not, and its curious whether this situation can last. Is this how they handled things before? They are in tension between believing in pacifism and not, and their recent experience with the Nazis has made them afraid and all of us afraid, too. We doubt. We question whether there is a peaceful future for the world.

Again it requires that faith be exercised in Jesus Christ, not as a mere prophet of God, or as a person who was just a good man.....but as "the only begotten son of God" who died so that the ransom was paid to save mankind. It is faith in his blood that saves us...not mere belief that he existed, or that all that God requires is those who demonstrate that they are "good" people.......Show me where God ever said that he was going to save "good people"? Without "love of God"..."love of neighbor" makes one only a good humanitarian....and these can be atheists. Loving God means it has to be sincere and from the heart....and it has to be the right God....there is only one genuine one (John 17:3)....but there are lots of phonies.

To save means 'Preserve'. For example I'm not here desiring to attack your faith, your character. I admire that you care deeply. You are fragile, like a stained glass window that I don't want to break. I don't mean you are weak. I mean that I would feel guilty to win this argument. Its hard leaving a faith group, disagreeing with all of one's friends. I 'Preserve' you by treating you with respect, letting God be the one to win arguments with you, where I can only do damage and poison with the poisonous tongue which we all have according to James 3. Its not that I want to do harm. I'd want to do good but I do not that which I would do and do that which I would not. I'm not shooting barbs of doubt purposely or with an evil will. God sees that. God sees the inside not the outside as we do.

God tried to warn his people about the drawbacks of human rulership, but his people wanted to be like the nations and have a human king.....they never listened and came to regret their decision. Power corrupts as we have seen all through human history. But humans keep repeating the same mistakes because they can't be told. All God has ever asked of us is our obedience.

It takes a lot of courage to live without a government.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Spoiler: Voice of Rachel weeping - no prediction about Herod

[Mat 2:17-18 NIV] 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
[Jer 31:16-18 NIV] 16 This is what the LORD says: "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD. "They will return from the land of the enemy. 17 So there is hope for your descendants," declares the LORD. "Your children will return to their own land. 18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.

[Mat 2:16 NIV] 16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

As is plain to see, Jeremiah never predicts a specific event, and in fact Jeremiah is talking about a different specific event. He leaves nothing to be completed.

Jeremiah 31

Spoiler: He will be called a Nazarene -- no completion predicted

[Mat 2:23 NIV] 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Nobody can find any such reference. Its an allusion to a figure that is not specifically identified, perhaps David. David offers the showbread and is not punished, but there is no prophet that says anyone else must do this, nothing to complete or fulfill.

Spoiler: Ever hearing -- no prediction, nothing to complete

Possibly? Isa 42:18-20; Isa 44:18; Jer 5:21; Eze 12:2

All prophet references which could remotely be connected to this are in Jeremiah and Isaiah, and they specifically apply to specific events in the past. Jeremiah is dealing with Israel in the time of Babylon. So is Isaiah. Neither prophet predicts that they will ignore Jesus. Instead each prophet predicts that they will be brought back after some suffering...not specific and leaving nothing specific to be completed.

[Mat 13:13-15 NIV] 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Spoiler: I will open my mouth in parables -- no prediction or completion required

[Mat 13:34-35 NIV] 34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Though Matthew calls this a fulfillment there is, again, no prediction or anything requiring parables in scripture. Again, 'Fulfill' does not mean fulfill to Matthew.

Spoiler: Peter and the sword -- no prediction and nothing to complete

[Mat 26:52-54 NIV] 52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
[Luk 22:36-37 NIV] 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

All of this from Isaiah 53, which is the Suffering Servant chapter which Jews say describes Israel and some Christians say describes Jesus. At the time of Jesus this would not be considered any kind of prediction at all.

Nobody can show where the scriptures say that a messiah must be numbered with the transgressors, and yet again Matthew uses the term 'Fulfill' in a way that does not mean fulfill. So does Luke, so this brings Luke into the same usage. This is fully explainable in terms of imitation but not fulfillment. It is explainable if Jesus symbolizes Israel but is otherwise inexplicable, and I think Christians are not required to think any particular way about it. We have freedom of thought.

For those unfamiliar with Matthew or who are learning about Christianity, Isaiah is written centuries before Jesus time. It applies to the Jews' sufferings, hopes and travels first, and then Jesus imitates those sufferings, hopes and travels in his own life. Calling these 'Predictions' is disingenuous, however you will encounter preachers and missionaries doing so.

Spoiler: Thirty Pieces of Silver -- no prediction nothing to complete

[Mat 27:5-10 NIV] 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Firstly, the quote is not from Jeremiah as Matthew writes but from Zechariah. Same same to us, so we can look it up in Zechariah. Zechariah is written around the time of Jeremiah and deals with some of the same events, so its not much of a difference to us who writes the passage. Maybe Matthew knows something we don't, so its Ok.

So what happens in Zechariah 11 is that Zechariah is behaving like a prophet, making a fuss, causing trouble. He takes a job as a shepherd and mistreats the sheep, getting himself fired. His severance pay is 30 shekels of silver. This is not a prediction of anything and leaves nothing to be completed.

That makes a tautology of scriptures in Matthew in which absolutely no predictions are made, nobody is expecting anything to be completed, fulfilled or otherwise done; yet each Matthew says is fulfilled by Jesus. This is fully explainable in terms of imitation but not fulfillment. It is explainable if Jesus life imitates the times and travels of Israel and the Jews but is otherwise not explainable.

Matthew never says Jesus fulfills something that we can find a prediction of. This is not an accident. Nobody is so ignorant that they would write it in this way accidentally.

I agree fully, Brick. I believe the writers of Matthew were determined to prove Jesus was the Messiah even to the point of pulling whole passages out of the OT that nothing to do with the Messiah and cramming them into their gospel like trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole in order to to say, for example, "Jesus washed away the doubt of the Jews who had Jesus crucified and instilled in them the fire of belief in Jesus as Messiah. Thus was fulfilled the prophecy, "The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire."

Crude example I know but you get the idea of how passage were ripped out willy-nilly and made to sound like they were a fulfillment of something they had to invent having Jesus do that barely remotely fit their storyline.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I agree fully, Brick. I believe the writers of Matthew were determined to prove Jesus was the Messiah even to the point of pulling whole passages out of the OT that nothing to do with the Messiah and cramming them into their gospel like trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole in order to to say, for example, "Jesus washed away the doubt of the Jews who had Jesus crucified and instilled in them the fire of belief in Jesus as Messiah. Thus was fulfilled the prophecy, "The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire."

Crude example I know but you get the idea of how passage were ripped out willy-nilly and made to sound like they were a fulfillment of something they had to invent having Jesus do that barely remotely fit their storyline.

That is sort of the worst possible scenario. Another scenario is that Matthew is a message between people living under and oppressive and intrusive government, and perhaps they cannot afford to discourse openly so write impossible things. Rome did crucify 30,000 Jewish men in a single day, lining the streets with crosses. If I had survived such a traumatic event I'd think twice before openly saying what I thought, for the sake of my children and also for the sake of continuing the hope of making the world a better place.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What about the part about the gospel being preached to all nations? Where is that in the OT?

I find first , we can jump ahead, so to speak, from 1st-century Matthew 24:14 to our day or time frame of Revelation 14:6.
The first century writings of John projected to us (Rev. 1:10) that the good news (of God's Kingdom - Daniel 2:44) would be declared to those who dwell on Earth: to every nation, tribe, tongue (language) and people.- Rev. 14:6
To me this bounces back to fulfilling OT Isaiah11:9 B.... that the earth will be filled with the 'knowledge of God' (aka Jehovah) as the waters are covering the sea. - which is in harmony with OT Psalms 22:27 and OT Habakkuk 2:14.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Very interesting. I wonder where the part Jesus says, "And the gospel shall be preached to the entire world" would be coming from since there was no gospel at the time this scripture was written.

I find the theme of Jesus' teaching is found at Luke 4:43 about the good news of God's kingdom.
So, it the the 'gospel' (or good news) which Jesus referenced as God's kingdom as found at Daniel 2:44-45.
Jesus is that figurative ' stone ' of verses 35 B and verse 45.
Today we see the international gospel or good news proclaiming about God's kingdom government on a vast global scale just as Jesus said it would be done at Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I find first , we can jump ahead, so to speak, from 1st-century Matthew 24:14 to our day or time frame of Revelation 14:6.
The first century writings of John projected to us (Rev. 1:10) that the good news (of God's Kingdom - Daniel 2:44) would be declared to those who dwell on Earth: to every nation, tribe, tongue (language) and people.- Rev. 14:6
To me this bounces back to fulfilling OT Isaiah11:9 B.... that the earth will be filled with the 'knowledge of God' (aka Jehovah) as the waters are covering the sea. - which is in harmony with OT Psalms 22:27 and OT Habakkuk 2:14.

YOu certainly do know your BIble.

 

[Deeje]

@Brickjectivity before we go any further, can I please get you to interpret what "Religion: liber-scripta grim Christian" means exactly? Who am I talking to?

 

[Deeje]

YOu certainly do know your BIble.

You will find no more devoted Bible students than JW's. A large part of what we do is Bible study, because without the scriptures, its just personal opinion and interpretation. We allow the scriptures to interpret themselves. You can't do that unless you know your Bible....

 

[Brickjectivity]

@Brickjectivity before we go any further, can I please get you to interpret what "Religion: liber-scripta grim Christian" means exactly? Who am I talking to?

Currently unaffiliated with a meeting but tend towards Quaker views of things.

 

[Deeje]

Currently unaffiliated with a meeting but tend towards Quaker views of things.

Thank you, I hope I was not being too personal, but I like to know if I am conversing with someone who belongs to a recognized brotherhood who hold the same beliefs, or if I am speaking with someone who is relying on personal interpretation....

Can I ask you what about the beliefs of Quakers you hold to be true, and if there is anything you disagree with? It helps me to understand where you are coming from.....TIA.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thank you, I hope I was not being too personal, but I like to know if I am conversing with someone who belongs to a recognized brotherhood who hold the same beliefs, or if I am speaking with someone who is relying on personal interpretation....

Can I ask you what about the beliefs of Quakers you hold to be true, and if there is anything you disagree with? It helps me to understand where you are coming from.....TIA.

No, it is flattering. I don't mind, but its not easy. I'm not actually a Quaker, and Quakers are very specific about that. If you aren't officially a Quaker then you shouldn't say you are. I'm not officially a Quaker at all. There are no Quakers within 100 miles of me, so that is not likely to change. I'm in rural parts of MS, so I guess that isn't surprising. I think because of the Quaker Oatmeal fiasco they are very particular about who calls his/herself a Quaker. Quaker Oatmeal is not Quaker.

Here's their faith and practice page. What Quakers Believe - Quaker.org

I like their practiced discernment, nurture of the life of the spirit which I did participate in as a visitor when I lived near Quakers, direct encounter with God. On the testimony side I am not as close, but I do believe war is a bad idea. I grew up in a military area, and if you asked me whether we had to go to war I'd probably say yes sometimes. I think ultimately war is wrong, and we should never go to war.

I come from a very charismatic evangelical background and have by measures moved towards the Quaker points of view without any contact with them, but where they have influenced me is with their silent worship, their principle of simple speech (which I have not implemented but might), their opposition to war. I'd say most if not all of their practices I can find in the canon including their belief of Direct encounter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

My understanding is that Christ is referring to the entire body of the text of the Old Testament not a specific verse for that information is scattered throughout. Christ has just condensed it.

 

[Deeje]

No, it is flattering. I don't mind, but its not easy. I'm not actually a Quaker, and Quakers are very specific about that. If you aren't officially a Quaker then you shouldn't say you are. I'm not officially a Quaker at all. There are no Quakers within 100 miles of me, so that is not likely to change. I'm in rural parts of MS, so I guess that isn't surprising. I think because of the Quaker Oatmeal fiasco they are very particular about who calls his/herself a Quaker. Quaker Oatmeal is not Quaker.

Do you think that true Christianity in our time would be found in only certain isolated localities? How were Jesus' disciples to preach 'in all the world' if they were only found in small geographical pockets? (Matthew 24:14) Do Quakers preach?

Here's their faith and practice page. What Quakers Believe - Quaker.org

Thank you for the link, it was very informative. I had a rough idea of what they believe, but I was actually surprised to read that....
“Today, Quakers are a worldwide, global community of people who are diverse in every way, include what they believe and practice. There are a variety of Quaker Faith and Practices online that give a much deeper perspective on this question.”

Diversity of belief and practice is not what the Bible indicates should be the case in genuine Christianity. (1 Corinthians 1:10) There was one set of beliefs and practices among first century Christians, and anyone who wanted to deviate from that and teach anything else was rebuked and rejected. (1 John 10-11) Deviation and introduced ideas is what fractured Christendom into thousands of sects......who can untangle that rabble?

As I said, it is easy to spot the counterfeits by comparing them with the original. All we know about the original is in our scripture, and if we follow what Jesus taught without adding or subtracting what we personally like or dislike, therein lies the truth. (IMO)

Jesus did however, warn that the devil would produce a counterfeit form of Christianity that would grow in the world like "weeds" and deceive a lot of people. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42; Matthew 7:13-14) But only certain people would be taken in by it....those who put their own preferences before God's. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4) These may call themselves "Christians" but they prefer to believe what appeals to them, rather than to search for the unalterable truth that Jesus said his disciples would disseminate to the whole world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

I like their practiced discernment, nurture of the life of the spirit which I did participate in as a visitor when I lived near Quakers, direct encounter with God. On the testimony side I am not as close, but I do believe war is a bad idea. I grew up in a military area, and if you asked me whether we had to go to war I'd probably say yes sometimes. I think ultimately war is wrong, and we should never go to war.

So, there is much that resonates with you. I think that many people think of the Quakers as virtually the same as the Amish. But they are quite different apparently.

Some of the statements in your link are quite puzzling if Quakers see themselves as Christians.....
Such as:
“Direct Encounter with God – Quakers believe that they do not need a mediator, a priest, pastor, or physical elements like the Eucharist or water Baptism to interact with God. For Friends, all people have the possibility of direct access to God.”

Those are not a biblical teachings. (1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 13:17; Matthew 28:19; John 6:65)....does that bother you?

As far as war is concerned, the world alienated from the true God will always find excuses for bloodshed, but Jesus’ disciples were told NOT to be part of that world. (John 17:14) And they would be hated because of it. (John 15:18-21)
There is no excuse to shed blood for either religious or political reasons, because Christians are counseled to “love their enemies” and to "pray for them", (Matthew 5:43-45) so any “Christian” who is involved in bloodshed, is telling God that they are not really Christians at all. (John 17:15-17) So good on the Quakers for that at least.

I come from a very charismatic evangelical background and have by measures moved towards the Quaker points of view without any contact with them, but where they have influenced me is with their silent worship, their principle of simple speech (which I have not implemented but might), their opposition to war. I'd say most if not all of their practices I can find in the canon including their belief of Direct encounter.

Have you really checked the Quakers' beliefs against the scriptures? It seems as if they have teachings that appeal to you for your own reasons, but have you really investigated their beliefs to see if they align with what Christ taught? I have seen some glaring discrepancies already. How do you feel about that?

The reason why I ask is because when I left the church system, I too went “shopping” for a faith that sat well with my heart. My hypocrisy meter was set “high” because of my experiences with different denominations in Christendom, which I found to be all basically teaching the same lies under different banners. I explored outside of Christianity to see if there was something out there that I had neglected to examine, but it all left me spiritually 'empty'. Just when I began to believe God was not really interested in me, there was a knock at my door. And I like to think that God found me because he wasn't in any of the places I thought he would be. He was somewhere that I had been persuaded not to look. But there I found the answers to all my questions, straight from the Bible where I knew they had to be, but didn't know where to find them. Now I know, and the liberation is amazing!
I now understand what Jesus meant when he said...."you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

How do you feel about what the Bible says as opposed to what people think it says? How do you discern the difference yourself? Who do you trust...and why?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

None. Christians will say, i.e. Isaiah 53, but that is because they mistakenly think that Isaiah 53 is messianic. It's not. It's about Israel.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, probably you are right.

I was thinking maybe Jesus was referring to His own words, if He made any allusion.

I believe Jesus could have meant the sign of Johannes. It is about staying in fish for three days, but it could be prophetic and an allusion to Messiah staying dead for three days, and rise.

You know that I believe that "born-again" Christians think that Jesus came back to life after being crucified... and I think that view is well supported by the NT. So just in the way you worded your sentence there, it makes it sound like Jesus would be dead for three days and rise? Rise to life after being dead? His religion would start teaching the word and bring "life" to the "body" of Christ? What? They make it very plain that the tomb was empty, so that means his body was gone. In his appearances it is written as if Jesus is somehow in his old body. He says touch me... See and feel the wounds... It is I. What are Christians supposed to believe?

Now for those of us who have doubts about the whole thing, there are several "prophecies" that are put out there in the NT that are taken way out of context, so they prove nothing... But to show that the NT writers went searching for anything they could find that they could use to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. I think the worst is taking one verse out of Isaiah and ignoring the rest to make Jesus born of a virgin. But this one is important too, because it's not there. So if they made up "prophecies", then how much of the rest of the story is also fabricated and embellished? I know this puts Baha'is in a tough spot. They can't say that the NT is made up legends that never happened. But, they can't agree with the story that Jesus actually came back to life either. Is there anymore that you can say other than, "it is symbolic", to explain how Baha'is make sense of this? Because, in my opinion, if the verse isn't there, then they lied.

 

[Mark La Buda]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

Consider-for a start-Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53:5.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Consider-for a start-Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53:5.

Neither of those verses is about the messiah. Genesis 3:15 is about the enmity between humanity (the seed of the woman) and snakes. Isaiah 53 is all about Israel, the servant.

 

[2ndpillar]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

It is not there, and if you look at Luke 1:1-3, you will find out that Luke witnessed nothing, and is just the teller of other people's tales. The 3rd day reference is with respect to Hosea 6:1-2 and is with respect to Judah and Ephraim (Joel 5), and them being healed after they confess their guilt. Luke is just peddling the false prophet Paul's false gospel of grace/cross. Hosea 6:2 is about when Judah and Ephraim will be cleansed and reunited, and will live on the land given to Jacob, with David as their king (Ezekiel 37:23-28).

 

[Mark La Buda]

Neither of those verses is about the messiah. Genesis 3:15 is about the enmity between humanity (the seed of the woman) and snakes. Isaiah 53 is all about Israel, the servant.

These scripture-like many others-were prophetic. The literary use of metaphor and similes-in the Bible-are very common.

This prophesy, at Genesis 3:15, is a very complicated scripture to discuss in this manner. It was, however, not fulfilled until thousands of years had passed. God was talking to Satan. The “woman” is referring to the birth of God’s new heavenly arrangement with Jesus appointed as king.-Galatians 4:26; Revelation11:15; 12:1.

Isaiah 53:5 is certainly referring to Jesus. (Matthew 27:49; Romans 4:25; 5:6, 19) Actually, the start of Isaiah 53:1 is referring to Jesus.-Isaiah 11:1; Matthew 26:67.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

These scripture-like many others-were prophetic.

I realize that Christians imagine that these two verses are messianic prophecies, but wanting it to be so doesn't make it so.