Which part of the God Delusion did you find most offensive?

[Magic Man]

Looks like I just discovered a way to never be responsible for my own actions ever again.

I didn't say you're not responsible. The question was about what is and what's not a religious act. Even if you commit a religious act, unless you're mentalle challenged, you're still at least partly responsible.

 

[Willamena]

Looks like I just discovered a way to never be responsible for my own actions ever again.

Woohoo!

 

[Willamena]

Good question. But if you are an employee of an corporation acting for that corporation in the name of that corporation, then that corporation will be held accountable for your actions.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is any contractual arrangement in being part of a religion.

 

[Magic Man]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is any contractual arrangement in being part of a religion.

Is that relevant?

 

[Sententia]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is any contractual arrangement in being part of a religion.

You know what you are discussing is mentioned in "The God Delusion". Psychology is fun to explore but I find neuroscience more accurate in terms of explaining the brain.

Now not to harp on 9/11 but it does have a point of what religious fantacism can do. Their decision to fly those planes into our buildings was their action and they should be held accountable. Their motivation was due to their fantactical belief in an after life inspired by religion, the promise of 40 virgins taught by religion and being always remembered with their religion as a hero.

Clearly religion had a responsibility in their actions. Religion plays a MAJOR role in peoples actions and beliefs. For most its a core philosphy and off limits from being questioned or debated. Here though, as far as 9/11 is concerned, we have a clear representation of a religious belief gone wrong. A memetic virus. A tool that can be used to minupulate people into doing such horrible things.

Back to america: When they tortured the witches do you think religion played no role? When they hung people and imprisioned citizens of this country for Blasphemy is religion also not responsible?

You seem to want to take the stance that just because someone was of such and such a religion the fact that they commited this act in the name of religion then it is unrelated to their religious beleifs. Which can be true... But is usually not.

If you truly beleive in an afterlife and that this life is borderline meaningless then one only needs to figure out your beleifs in the afterlife to minupulate you in this world like a puppet.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

What you are overlooking is why religion is used as an "excuse" by politicians. It is used as an "excuse" or motivator by politicians precisely because it indeed works as one. That is, significant numbers of people will do good or bad things if they are told their religion demands those things of them. If that were not so, politicians would not -- they could not -- use religion as an "excuse" or motivator for people to do things.

Is that why communism is a religion even though it's officially atheistic?

 

[kai]

Is that why communism is a religion even though it's officially atheistic?

you cant really attack one belief system with another, stalinism,or the regime in N korea for example have beleif systems that use personality cults, you can call it atheist if you like but if your leader is held as devine as in Nkorea then its hardly atheist. kim ill Sung is in fact the eternal president even though he is dead.

 

[Sunstone]

Is that why communism is a religion even though it's officially atheistic?

Is that a relevant question?

 

[Sunstone]

How did this thread get off the topic of the God Delusion?

 

[Apex]

How did this thread get off the topic of the God Delusion?

It probably started when some posters began to try and paint all religions as "evil" at their core due to the actions of a few. Other posters refuted this, and it just kept on going. Look back about the statement Dawkins made about the prayer rally after 9/11, I think it started there.

 

[crystalonyx]

Their motivation was due to their fantactical belief in an after life inspired by religion, the promise of 40 virgins taught by religion and being always remembered with their religion as a hero.


.

Besides the fact I don't believe it, isn't this promise more metaphorical than real?

 

[Sunstone]

It probably started when some posters began to try and paint all religions as "evil" at their core due to the actions of a few. Other posters refuted this, and it just kept on going. Look back about the statement Dawkins made about the prayer rally after 9/11, I think it started there.

That seems about right.

 

[Sententia]

Besides the fact I don't believe it, isn't this promise more metaphorical than real?

Not its not real. Its their beleif. In the US polticians dont want to use the R word and characterize suicide bombers and the hijackers of 9/11 as pure evil or psychotic. Dawkin's writes about this in the god delusion much more eloquently then I could:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However misguided we may think them, they are motivated, like the Christian murderers of abortion doctors, by what they perceive to be righteousness, faithfully pursuing what their religion tells them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They are not psychotic; they are religious idealists who, by their own lights, are rational. They perceive their acts to be good, not because of some warped personal idiosyncrasy, and not because they have been possessed by Satan, but because they have been brought up, from the cradle, to have total and unquestioning faith. [/FONT]

 

[crystalonyx]

Not its not real. Its their beleif. In the US polticians dont want to use the R word and characterize suicide bombers and the hijackers of 9/11 as pure evil or psychotic. Dawkin's writes about this in the god delusion much more eloquently then I could:

No, I mean they don't literally believe they will see 40 or 70 virgins in the afterlife, it's a metaphorical concept.

 

[Sententia]

No, I mean they don't literally believe they will see 40 or 70 virgins in the afterlife, it's a metaphorical concept.

I believe its 72, I was mistaken earlier with 40... As far as whether they really believe it or not I think it would depend. Their real motivation may be more because they will be taking a short cut and guaranteeing their place in the afterlife. Perhaps its more martyrdom if you understand what they believe from that vantage.

I haven't really spoken or debated any of these people but I have read about Jihad which is a special paradise for martyrs and prophets.

As far as whether they believe it to be metaphorical. Likely for many. For others perhaps not. If you are familiar with the abrogation interpretation of the Koran(Quran?) you would quickly to begin to fear some of these people. The majority are non-violent but I often wonder how many of these people would be doing this if they were not taught as children that faith is a virtue and you believe because its your religion and who you are.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do.[/FONT]

 

[Magic Man]

Is that why communism is a religion even though it's officially atheistic?

First, it's not officially atheistic. The more famous communistic communities, i.e. the Soviet Union, were officially both, but that's like saying Bob has short hair and brown eyes. Sure the co-existed in a certain example, but that doesn't mean they hav anything to do with each other.

Second, communism is not a religion. It is a socio-political philosophy. In Stalin's case, and a few others, it became somewhat like a religion because of how he went about it, but then it became less and less like true communism, and more like a dictatorship. Also, being a religion and being atheistic are not mutually exclusive. I would think you'd been around here enough to understand that. Buddhism is the best example for this. May forms are considered both a religion and atheistic.

 

[lilithu]

Lilithu, I don't understand why you have so steadfastly misconstrued everything I've said,

I see no other way to construe what you have said, and you have not explained another way. I have asked you, since you say you're not calling for the end of the Abrahamic faiths, what it is you envision as the "reform" you think is so needed. I could ask you, since you say you're not calling me or others to change, what the point was of your litany against liberal religion. I have asked you, and only response I've gotten from you thus far is a repetition of the above accusation.

or why you've spent the first part of this thread ranting about what a horrible person Dawkins is and the latter part ranting about what a horrible person I am, but if that's what you need to do, fine. I don't mind anything you say about me.

You think I've been ranting about what a horrible person either you or Dawkins are?

???

Right, we perceive things very differently.

However, I disclaim responsibility for your decision to "react with emotion" and "react with passion." Even if I had said the things you misrepresent me as having said, and even if I'm all the things you say I am, there is nothing about my grievous character flaws that forces you to lose control of your emotions.

First of all, I never said you had responsibility for how I react. Secondly, I said, to a supposed friend, that my feelings were hurt by his comments. That is a FAR CRY from losing control of my emotions.

If you want to try to dismiss this by passing it off as me losing control of my emotions, that's your problem. What I see is you making the argument about my "emotions" instead of addressing my questions. You attack people whom I respect and love. I respond with passion because you have attacked people whom I respect and love, but addressing specific points. And your response is to ignore the points and say "why are you so emotional"? Honestly, you really should know better.

 

[lilithu]

And, as I said in the other thread, there is no such thing as an atheistic ideal. Atheism is the lack of belief in God, that's all.

And theism is the belief in a god or gods, that's all. There is no theistic ideal. One theist's god(s) can be wrathful and another be the embodiment of love. Given all the myriad views of god(s) that exist, how can it possibly be any more legitimate to make generalizations about theism than atheism?

Not just "theism," the same is true for the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Sententia]

And theism is the belief in a god or gods, that's all. There is no theistic ideal. One theist's god(s) can be wrathful and another be the embodiment of love. Given all the myriad views of god(s) that exist, how can it possibly be any more legitimate to make generalizations about theism than atheism?

Not just "theism," the same is true for the Abrahamic faiths.

I can generalize that a theist accepts that there is a god or he would be an atheist and I can accept they believe in revelation or they would be deist.

Also commonly they believe in the afterlife. I discussed this here as well: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1162731-post94.html

 

[lilithu]

Now not to harp on 9/11 but it does have a point of what religious fantacism can do. Their decision to fly those planes into our buildings was their action and they should be held accountable. Their motivation was due to their fantactical belief in an after life inspired by religion, the promise of 40 virgins taught by religion and being always remembered with their religion as a hero.

Has it ever occurred to you that their motivation might also have been a hatred of the U.S. because the policies we've had regarding the Middle East for the last few decades? Our history of meddling? Our support for the Shah if Iran? The encroachment of Western materialism on the Islamic world?

You think that they flew planes into buildings in order to get 40 virgins because that's what the media told you. I'm not saying that it wasn't a motivating factor at all, but to focus on just that little part of it is both myopic and convenient.

Back to america: When they tortured the witches do you think religion played no role?

Aside from the tainted grain, I think the main cause of the Salem witch trials was fear of those who are different - the Other.