Which part of the God Delusion did you find most offensive?

[lilithu]

I can generalize that a theist accepts that there is a god or he would be an atheist and I can accept they believe in revelation or they would be deist.

I know plenty of people who call themselves theists who do not believe in revelation. And even they do believe in revelation, they differ in their interpretations of what it means. You keep focusing on whether or not someone believes in god(s). The far more important question is what kind of god(s) the person believes in. And I don't mean is there one or twenty. I mean, what kinds of ideals do their concepts of god(s) uphold?

Also commonly they believe in the afterlife.

And also commonly they don't.

 

[Sententia]

Has it ever occurred to you that their motivation might also have been a hatred of the U.S. because the policies we've had regarding the Middle East for the last few decades? Our history of meddling? Our support for the Shah if Iran? The encroachment of Western materialism on the Islamic world?

You think that they flew planes into buildings in order to get 40 virgins because that's what the media told you. I'm not saying that it wasn't a motivating factor at all, but to focus on just that little part of it is both myopic and convenient.

It was 72 virgins and as I explained later they likely didn't believe they would get any virgins at all. Its just a popular western misconception which a few people explained to me in great detail after I posted that comment.

The wanted to be martyrs for completing the Jihad.

Nonetheless we know a lot more about the terrorists now then we did on 9/11. Are you disputing the invidividuals motivations or the people who trained them and gave them the orders?

The people who flew the planes were most definitely motivated by flawwed religious beliefs as our many suicide bombers. (Not all... Kamikazee pilots were motivated out of both desperation and nationalism.)

The people who motivated them and passed on the order were also most likely motivated by religion but at some point you will come to somebody not motivated by religion who may have the ideas and motivations you describe.

 

[lilithu]

The wanted to be martyrs and to goto Jihad.

Nonetheless we know a lot more about the terrorists now then we did on 9/11. Are you disputing the invidividuals motivations or the people who trained them and gave them the orders?

The people who flew the planes were most definitely motivated by flawwed religious beliefs as our many suicide bombers. (Not all... Kamikazee pilots were motivated out of both desperation and nationalism.)

The people who motivated them and passed on the order were also most likely motivated by religion but at some point you will come to somebody not motivated by religion who may have the ideas and motivations you describe.

Really. You know for certain that the hijackers had no other motivation than just to be religious martyrs. And you know this how??

I forgot another very common motivation for suicide bombers - knowing that their family would be well compensated materially for their sacrifice. That's no small motivation in areas of severe economic depression, where the only assistance to families comes from terrorist organizations.

 

[Yerda]

The wanted to be martyrs and to goto Jihad.

I've never witnessed jihad referenced as a place.

 

[lilithu]

I've never witnessed jihad referenced as a place.

I took it as "want to go to war." But you know, you say jihad and it sounds scarier.

Even tho "jihad" actually means struggle, not holy war. And in Islam, the highest form of jihad is internal.

 

[Sententia]

I've never witnessed jihad referenced as a place.

Its not. I was cutting and pasting from the other thread.

 

[Sententia]

Really. You know for certain that the hijackers had no other motivation than just to be religious martyrs. And you know this how??

I forgot another very common motivation for suicide bombers - knowing that their family would be well compensated materially for their sacrifice. That's no small motivation in areas of severe economic depression, where the only assistance to families comes from terrorist organizations.

Blah... Im not looking up the links to the 9/11 investigation. Suffice to say much has been released and they were religiously motivated. You don't believe me, you prove me wrong for once.

 

[Yerda]

Its not. I was cutting and pasting from the other thread.

OK. I don't think it's something that's to be completed either. It's more like a struggle to improve yourself and your world...to be more like Allah. I think. That's off-topic though, innit.

 

[lilithu]

Blah... Im not looking up the links to the 9/11 investigation. Suffice to say much has been released and they were religiously motivated. You don't believe me, you prove me wrong for once.

I'm not denying that "much has been released" on their religious motivation. I am questioning how the media and/or administration presented that as the main and/or only motivation for the attacks.

I thought we weren't supposed to believe everything we hear without questioning. :sarcastic

 

[Sententia]

I'm not denying that "much has been released" on their religious motivation. I am questioning how the media and/or administration presented that as the main and/or only motivation for the attacks.

I thought we weren't supposed to believe everything we hear without questioning. :sarcastic

Question everything. Skeptism is a fantastic thing to have.

Now consider your stated possibilities and make a decision as to why YOU think they did it. Then write it up as a hypothesis and see if it can be disproven.

All the evidence I have seen so far leads me to believe that these men were motivated by religion. Perhaps the people pulling the strings were not, they probably had other reasons.

 

[lilithu]

Question everything. Skeptism is a fantastic thing to have.

Now consider your stated possibilities and make a decision as to why YOU think they did it. Then write it up as a hypothesis and see if it can be disproven.

My, how condescending.

 

[Sententia]

My, how condescending.

I asked you to make a decision... thats not condescending. You ask me how I could know something... I really dont know how you could conclude that the hijackers were not motivated by religion. If you dispute that then explain why.

 

[lilithu]

I asked you to make a decision... thats not condescending. You ask me how I could know something... I really dont know how you could conclude that the hijackers were not motivated by religion. If you dispute that then explain why.

It's condescending to give me a little lecture on how to think for myself.

I didn't say they were not motivated by religion. I said they were not solely motivated by religion. You're painting it as black and white and I am saying it's more complicated than that. I gave a variety of other motivations based on studying the Islamic faith, the knowing something about past history of the region, reading analyses, and actually listening to what various Muslims have to say.

Where did you get your information from?

 

[Sententia]

It's condescending to give me a little lecture on how to think for myself.

I didn't say they were not motivated by religion. I said they were not solely motivated by religion. You're painting it as black and white and I am saying it's more complicated than that. I gave a variety of other motivations based on studying the Islamic faith, the knowing something about past history of the region, reading analyses, and actually listening to what various Muslims have to say.

Where did you get your information from?

Of course they were not solely motivated by religion but it played a large part. You realize you are both arguing from authority and by question repeatedly.

I never intructed you how to think for yourself. I said if you dispute the notion that the terrorists had religion intent then to provide a hypothesis on an alternate theory? As I said, I cant conclude based on the evidence that the hijackers were not motivated by their religious beliefs. Thats me asking you to defend your point of view. If your not disputing that religion played a major role in their motivations then why are you arguing with me?

Seriously we could sum this up as just saying, there may have been other motivations that the hijackers had to fly the planes into our towers. I think we can agree that the major motivation was a fantatical religious belief in what they were doing would allow them to become martyrs and to blissfully exist in a paradise in the afterlife. A belief that was false and dangerous to society as a whole.

 

[lilithu]

You realize you are both arguing from authority and by question repeatedly.

I'm arguing that having some knowledge about the issue from independent sources might be useful in discerning the legitimacy of the stuff we're spoon fed by the administration and the media.

I never intructed you how to think for yourself.

Ahem:
"Question everything. Skeptism is a fantastic thing to have.

Now consider your stated possibilities and make a decision as to why YOU think they did it. Then write it up as a hypothesis and see if it can be disproven."

I think we can agree that the major motivation was a fantatical religious belief in what they were doing would allow them to become martyrs and to blissfully exist in a paradise in the afterlife.

The? Nope.

 

[Magic Man]

And theism is the belief in a god or gods, that's all. There is no theistic ideal. One theist's god(s) can be wrathful and another be the embodiment of love. Given all the myriad views of god(s) that exist, how can it possibly be any more legitimate to make generalizations about theism than atheism?

Not just "theism," the same is true for the Abrahamic faiths.

I never made generalizations about theism, except maybe that they believe in God. Your first paragraph is absolutely correct. Your last line is not. The Abrahamic faiths have some things in common, and those are the generalities I did mention.

 

[Magic Man]

I didn't say they were not motivated by religion. I said they were not solely motivated by religion. You're painting it as black and white and I am saying it's more complicated than that. I gave a variety of other motivations based on studying the Islamic faith, the knowing something about past history of the region, reading analyses, and actually listening to what various Muslims have to say.

Where did you get your information from?

It did sound like you were saying they were not motivated by religion at all. If you had said they were just not solely motivated by religion, then we wouldn't be having such a debate. There might have been other factors, sure. In the grand scheme of things, it would be silly to deny that. I think their religion being any part of the motivation is good enough to call it into question, though.

 

[Sententia]

I'm arguing that having some knowledge about the issue from independent sources might be useful in discerning the legitimacy of the stuff we're spoon fed by the administration and the media.

I agree

Ahem:
"Question everything. Skeptism is a fantastic thing to have.

Now consider your stated possibilities and make a decision as to why YOU think they did it. Then write it up as a hypothesis and see if it can be disproven."

I was quoting your statement that we should question everything and expanding on it not telling you how to think. I suppose there is the possibility you were being sarcastic and don't think we should question everything.

The? Nope.

Well if its not the major reason explain why you think so. Its clear you want to argue some point... what is it?