Which political party actually acts like Nazis? Trump Jr says it's the Democrats.

[Stevicus]

It should also be noted that J. Edgar Hoover's campaign of harassment and surveillance against MLK was done with the knowledge and tacit approval of JFK and LBJ.

For that matter, the CIA and NSA were started under Democratic administrations. It can be said that FDR's administration launched the first salvo in the "war on drugs" by outlawing marijuana. One of the most fascist things the US ever did in the 20th century was lock up Japanese-Americans during WW2, and then there was the atomic bomb.

I'm not saying the Republicans are any better, but I'm seeing a lot of insinuations in this thread that some people believe the Democrats to be a bunch of saints and choir boys since the Civil War. They weren't, and they aren't.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

It should also be noted that J. Edgar Hoover's campaign of harassment and surveillance against MLK was done with the knowledge and tacit approval of JFK and LBJ.

For that matter, the CIA and NSA were started under Democratic administrations. It can be said that FDR's administration launched the first salvo in the "war on drugs" by outlawing marijuana. One of the most fascist things the US ever did in the 20th century was lock up Japanese-Americans during WW2, and then there was the atomic bomb.

I'm not saying the Republicans are any better, but I'm seeing a lot of insinuations in this thread that some people believe the Democrats to be a bunch of saints and choir boys since the Civil War. They weren't, and they aren't.

Historical examples are important, but we ARE talking about the current day. Further, if people are so keen to point out the wrongdoing of Democrats past, why are those same people keen to emulate similar wrongs now? Is that not the height of hypocrisy?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not saying the Republicans are any better, but I'm seeing a lot of insinuations in this thread that some people believe the Democrats to be a bunch of saints and choir boys since the Civil War. They weren't, and they aren't.

Nobody's insinuated that the Democrats are perfect; just that they're not Nazis.

 

[Stevicus]

Historical examples are important, but we ARE talking about the current day.

True, although my only point was that one doesn't have to go all the way back to the Civil War or even cite their associations with Dixiecrats or the "Invisible Empire."

What we're talking about here is the image that the parties would like to present to the public, as opposed to the reality of what they actually do in practice.

Further, if people are so keen to point out the wrongdoing of Democrats past, why are those same people keen to emulate similar wrongs now? Is that not the height of hypocrisy?

Well, I suppose it's a knife that cuts both ways.

What I've noticed in this and similar discussions is that both the Democratic and Republican Parties - however much they've changed from the past - they're the still same basic entities that they've always been. Likewise, we have the same US government that was established in the 18th century. We are multiply-connected and tied to that historical foundation.

We never were "Nazis" or "Fascists," and I've always found these kinds of comparisons to be disingenuous anyway. But that doesn't mean we were a bunch of choir boys either - Democrats, Republicans, Whigs, or Federalists.

In more recent times, we have changed. There have been many from all quarters in society who recognized the great wrongs committed in the past and pressed forward for change and wide-ranging reforms. All of the above-named parties did wrong, as well as our government as a whole. But by the same token, the same parties and the government implemented changes and wanted to correct those wrongs.

In other words, both parties deserve the blame they get, but to be fair, they both deserve credit for bringing about changes and massive reforms to try to correct the wrongs of the past. But I think what's happened is that, in the process of making and implementing these reforms (civil rights, gender equality, immigration, etc.), there seems to be those who believe we still haven't done enough, while others believe that we've done too much already. That's what the main disagreement seems to revolve around these days, although I don't think that makes anyone a Nazi, unless they're a member or supporter of that party.

The far-left, of course, has had some fringe and extremely violent elements, so they're definitely not nice people - but even that doesn't make them "Nazis." Some could argue that they're just as bad as Nazis, but that would be another argument.

I guess my whole point here is that it just seems that people are trying to whitewash America and make us appear like we're all a bunch of innocent choir boys. Someone else is to blame for all our sins, whether it's hillbillies waving the Confederate flag or Nazis descending in from Frost Cuckooland. It's not really ordinary Americans who did all this; it's always been someone else.

 

[Stevicus]

Nobody's insinuated that the Democrats are perfect; just that they're not Nazis.

And I agree that they're not Nazis...but neither are the Republicans.

The funny thing about all this back and forth of each side calling the other "Nazi" is that the actual Nazis in Germany really didn't want to have anything to do with American Nazis, whom they regarded as buffoons and crackpots - not much different from today.

The point is, our mainstream parties did spring up from a checkered history of racism and some elements of fascism/jingoism/nationalism in various forms. But it was still quite different from the Nazis - even if one can note similarities.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And I agree that they're not Nazis...but neither are the Republicans.

A non-negligible number of Republicans are. Many more are members of generally-allied racist groups like the KKK, Proud Boys, Council of Conservative Citizens, etc.

The funny thing about all this back and forth of each side calling the other "Nazi" is that the actual Nazis in Germany really didn't want to have anything to do with American Nazis, whom they regarded as buffoons and crackpots - not much different from today.

The point is, our mainstream parties did spring up from a checkered history of racism and some elements of fascism/jingoism/nationalism in various forms. But it was still quite different from the Nazis - even if one can note similarities.

I'm not talking about the past of the Republican Party; I'm talking about its current makeup and policies.

 

[Riders]

He's made some good points. It's no secret that Democrats have called for violence and in some cases had gotten violent already over political philosophy.

Trump Jr.: Democratic Party platform similar to Nazis' - CNNPolitics

Let the carnage of debate commence!

If you look at my Trump the New World Order video it says just the exact opposite. It says Trump is a part of The New World order which is a aprt of the Nazi re geem cant figure out how to spell it but you get my meaning.

The whole thing with Russian collusion that's a part of the New World Order too.

 

[Stevicus]

A non-negligible number of Republicans are. Many more are members of generally-allied racist groups like the KKK, Proud Boys, Council of Conservative Citizens, etc.

Do we have actual hard data as to the numbers of members in these organizations?

I'm not talking about the past of the Republican Party; I'm talking about its current makeup and policies.

I realize that. But the past connects the present.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do we have actual hard data as to the numbers of members in these organizations?

White nationalist/white supremacist/racist groups tend to be pretty secretive, so the stats we have tend to be lower limits more than estimates of their precise size.

I realize that. But the past connects the present.

Whatever.

 

[Shaul]

So dedicated to your craft. Look at these DemoKKKrats! I bet you believe that the confederate south was left-wing in 1860 too!

View attachment 23554

Well that didn’t prove anything. So what if some Neón-Nazis also support the wall? That doesn’t mean President Trump agrees with them nor wants their support. That would be like posting the CPUSA supporting Planned Parenthood so the Democrats are Communists. It is the fallacy of guilt by association. So, no, President Trump is not a neo-Nazi.

 

[Shaul]

You're the first to assert this.

Do you have some data to add on to this?

Yes, and plenty.

“At the time of Ulysses S. Grant's election to the presidency, white supremacists were conducting a reign of terror throughout the South. In outright defiance of the Republican-led federal government, Southern Democrats formed organizations that violently intimidated blacks and Republicans who tried to win political power.

The most prominent of these, the Ku Klux Klan, was formed in Pulaski, Tennessee, in 1865. Originally founded as a social club for former Confederate soldiers, the Klan evolved into a terrorist organization. It would be responsible for thousands of deaths, and would help to weaken the political power of Southern blacks and Republicans.” -the American Experience, PBS
Grant, Reconstruction and the KKK | American Experience | PBS

Do you want a partial list of Democrats that were members of the KKK?
Here you go:

Edward Douglass White, a Democrat and the Chief Justice of the United States, was a known member of the KKK in his home state of Louisiana, where he had served a U.S. Senator.

Hugo Black. In 1921, he successfully defended E. R. Stephenson in his trial for the murder of a Catholic priest, Fr. James E. Coyle. Black, a Democrat, joined the Ku Klux Klan shortly afterwards, in order to gain votes from the anti-Catholic element in Alabama. He built his winning Senate campaign around multiple appearances at KKK meetings across Alabama. News of his membership was a secret until shortly after he was confirmed as an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

Theodore G. Bilbo, a Democrat, the Governor of Mississippi and later the U.S. Senator for Mississippi, was a founder of the Mississippi chapter of the KKK.

John Brown Gordon, a Democrat and the U.S. Senator for Georgia, was a founder of the KKK in his home state of Georgia.

Elmer David Davies, a Democrat and a Federal Judge of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Tennessee, was a member of the KKK whilst at university.

Bibb Graves, a Democrat, who was the Governor of Alabama. He lost his first campaign for governor in 1922, but four years later, with the secret endorsement of the Ku Klux Klan, he was elected to his first term as governor. Graves was almost certainly the Exalted Cyclops(chapter president) of the Montgomery chapter of the Klan. Graves, like Hugo Black, used the strength of the Klan to further his electoral prospects.

I could cite many more.

Yes, the Democrats have a history of being the party of the KKK.

 

[Loviatar]

Well that didn’t prove anything. So what if some Neón-Nazis also support the wall? That doesn’t mean President Trump agrees with them nor wants their support. That would be like posting the CPUSA supporting Planned Parenthood so the Democrats are Communists. It is the fallacy of guilt by association. So, no, President Trump is not a neo-Nazi.

While I agree that the "Neo-Nazis want the wall, Trump wants the wall, therefore Trump is a Nazi!" argument is really bad, the CPUSA and Planned Parenthood is false equivalence.

Steve Bannon was actually a leader of the Trump campaign and in the Trump administration; while also not a Neo-Nazi, he's a supporter of far-right movements like Front National and the authoritarian Orban government in Hungary, an admirer of the Russian far-right thinker Aleksandr Dugin, at least very familiar with the ideas of Italian far-right thinker Julius Evola. Nazi-adjacent, basically. A more accurate comparison, it seems to me, would be Henry Wallace in the 1940s and the CPUSA - not himself a communist, but a useful tool who has them in his circle of trust and is unwilling to condemn them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, and plenty.

“At the time of Ulysses S. Grant's election to the presidency, white supremacists were conducting a reign of terror throughout the South. In outright defiance of the Republican-led federal government, Southern Democrats formed organizations that violently intimidated blacks and Republicans who tried to win political power.

The most prominent of these, the Ku Klux Klan, was formed in Pulaski, Tennessee, in 1865. Originally founded as a social club for former Confederate soldiers, the Klan evolved into a terrorist organization. It would be responsible for thousands of deaths, and would help to weaken the political power of Southern blacks and Republicans.” -the American Experience, PBS
Grant, Reconstruction and the KKK | American Experience | PBS

Do you want a partial list of Democrats that were members of the KKK?
Here you go:

Edward Douglass White, a Democrat and the Chief Justice of the United States, was a known member of the KKK in his home state of Louisiana, where he had served a U.S. Senator.

Hugo Black. In 1921, he successfully defended E. R. Stephenson in his trial for the murder of a Catholic priest, Fr. James E. Coyle. Black, a Democrat, joined the Ku Klux Klan shortly afterwards, in order to gain votes from the anti-Catholic element in Alabama. He built his winning Senate campaign around multiple appearances at KKK meetings across Alabama. News of his membership was a secret until shortly after he was confirmed as an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

Theodore G. Bilbo, a Democrat, the Governor of Mississippi and later the U.S. Senator for Mississippi, was a founder of the Mississippi chapter of the KKK.

John Brown Gordon, a Democrat and the U.S. Senator for Georgia, was a founder of the KKK in his home state of Georgia.

Elmer David Davies, a Democrat and a Federal Judge of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Tennessee, was a member of the KKK whilst at university.

Bibb Graves, a Democrat, who was the Governor of Alabama. He lost his first campaign for governor in 1922, but four years later, with the secret endorsement of the Ku Klux Klan, he was elected to his first term as governor. Graves was almost certainly the Exalted Cyclops(chapter president) of the Montgomery chapter of the Klan. Graves, like Hugo Black, used the strength of the Klan to further his electoral prospects.

I could cite many more.

Yes, the Democrats have a history of being the party of the KKK.

Do you have any evidence that the Democratic party is currently supported by the KKK?

 

[Stevicus]

White nationalist/white supremacist/racist groups tend to be pretty secretive, so the stats we have tend to be lower limits more than estimates of their precise size.

So, you don't really know if the numbers are negligible or not.

Whatever.

The thing is, just being politically incorrect is not the same thing as being a Nazi. That's where a lot of people get confused.

 

[Shaul]

Do you have any evidence that the Democratic party is currently supported by the KKK?

Well the KKK is but an echo of what it was, so there is that. But, yes, there are echoes of the Democrat connection even today.

Consider that Robert C. Byrd, was a recruiter for the Klan while in his 20s and 30s, rising to the title of Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter. After leaving the group, Byrd spoke in favor of the Klan during his early political career. Though he claimed to have left the organization in 1943, Byrd, wrote a letter in 1946 to the group's Imperial Wizard stating "The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia." Byrd attempted to explain or defend his former membership in the Klan in his 1958 U.S. Senate campaign when he was 41 years old. Byrd, a Democrat, eventually became his party leader in the Senate. Byrd later said joining the Klan was his "greatest mistake." However, in a 2001 incident Byrd, Democrat, repeatedly used the phrase "white ******s" on a national television broadcast. Now Senator Byrd was lauded by Hillary Clinton. She even referred to him as one of her mentors. So we have 2016 Democrat candidate for President who had a known KKK Kleagle for a mentor. I’d say that was recent enough.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If you look at my Trump the New World Order video it says just the exact opposite. It says Trump is a part of The New World order which is a aprt of the Nazi re geem cant figure out how to spell it but you get my meaning.

The whole thing with Russian collusion that's a part of the New World Order too.

Oh.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well the KKK is but an echo of what it was, so there is that. But, yes, there are echoes of the Democrat connection even today.

Consider that Robert C. Byrd, was a recruiter for the Klan while in his 20s and 30s, rising to the title of Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter. After leaving the group, Byrd spoke in favor of the Klan during his early political career. Though he claimed to have left the organization in 1943, Byrd, wrote a letter in 1946 to the group's Imperial Wizard stating "The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia." Byrd attempted to explain or defend his former membership in the Klan in his 1958 U.S. Senate campaign when he was 41 years old. Byrd, a Democrat, eventually became his party leader in the Senate. Byrd later said joining the Klan was his "greatest mistake." However, in a 2001 incident Byrd, Democrat, repeatedly used the phrase "white ******s" on a national television broadcast. Now Senator Byrd was lauded by Hillary Clinton. She even referred to him as one of her mentors. So we have 2016 Democrat candidate for President who had a known KKK Kleagle for a mentor. I’d say that was recent enough.

Again, do you have any evidence that the KKK currently support the Democratic party? A former member of the KKK being a member (who was subsequently honored by the NAACP for contributions to civil rights: NAACP Mourns the Passing of U.S. Senator Robert Byrd | Press Room | NAACP) does not mean anything with regards to current support by the organization for the party itself.

 

[fantome profane]

So, no, President Trump is not a neo-Nazi.

Absolutely correct. Trump is not a Nazi, neo or otherwise. But he is a white supremacist.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Absolutely correct. Trump is not a Nazi, neo or otherwise. But he is a white supremacist.

And NAZI enabler.

 

[Revoltingest]

While I agree that the "Neo-Nazis want the wall, Trump wants the wall, therefore Trump is a Nazi!" argument is really bad, the CPUSA and Planned Parenthood is false equivalence.

Let me explain how logic works for a some on the left here.....
1) They find a fact they like, eg, some Nazi agrees with Trump about something.
2) They feel that Trump is a Nazi or at least a sympathizer.
3) This fact comports with that feeling.
4) They claim this proves Trump sides with Nazis.
5) They give their equivalent of "quod erat demonstrandum"
by picking 1 from column A, & 1 from column B.....
Column A:
We have the facts!
Reality has a liberal bias!
False equivalency!
Column B:
tRump is an idiot traitor!
tRrump is a pedophile!
tRrump bought Melanie, who was a prostitute!

Spoiler: Caution

Just kidding!
(Sort of)